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-   -   Fuel-It! B58 update with Pure Stage 2 turbo (https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51017)

Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! 12-29-2017 04:04 PM

Fuel-It! B58 update with Pure Stage 2 turbo
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hey guys, we get lots of questions about our B58 progress so we thought wed make a post updating everyone on where were at with this platform and what were currently doing.

Weve had our Pure Stage 2 turbo for a while now and no issues. The car is powerful and shows a lot of potential. When we (actually Pure Turbos) installed the turbo a few months ago it did about 540whp at low WGDC but fueling was an issue so we didnt press on. At this time the tuning constraints for timing and fueling are still the biggest issue and boost control is no problem with the JB4. We are continuing to work on the fueling and timing issues with Terry Burger and making progress but as most know, the DME tends to run very lean due to the often low DME BT no matter how much fuel we throw at it.

**** Running lean on low octane fuel can lead to engine damage. This is risky business until we have all the proper tuning tools in place so keep that in mind when cranking up the boost and consider yourselves warned. 😉 *****

We have tried a variety of configurations and have a couple working theories but ultimately were still fighting the DME. At this time we only run race gas (108 octane) and inject Ignite Racing Fuel E98 when testing high boost. We use CM5 nozzles with full PWM pump control via the JB4 at about 30% duty cycle. In the mean time we would not recommend adding a lot of supplemental fueling beyond what is needed to keep trims from maxing out as it does not help. In this case we do not believe more is better and would strongly caution people not to run too large of nozzles or too much PWM. Doing so is counter productive and increases risk, especially if injecting standard gasoline.

As we make progress we will update everyone in this thread. Please refrain from calling or emailing us individually and ask your questions here so everyone can read the responses.

For those that prefer too, we can use this thread to post logs and work on development to keep everything in one place. We'll also share our logs and information as we progress.

Thanks,
Steve

Attachment 70243

MR@MRAutosport 12-29-2017 07:50 PM

:popcorn Can't wait to see some numbers

Mrpink 12-31-2017 02:52 AM

Just curious as to why you are spraying ethanol over methanol?

And would you say CM5 are best for stock turbo?

KrS24 01-17-2018 05:58 AM

Any updates?

Bullitt1841 01-20-2018 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrS24 (Post )
Any updates?

Yes. Waiting for Steve to post! :burnrubber:

Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! 01-20-2018 12:34 PM

4 Attachment(s)
We spent some time with the B58 on the dyno yesterday. :burnrubber:

Not bad for only 45% WGDC! More to come out of this car as the tuning progresses but as previously mentioned, tuning is still our biggest obstacle. Consequently we were running very high octane fuel since it tends to run so lean.
Specs:
2017 440i
Fuel-It! ethanol sensor
Pure Turbos Stage 2 Turbo
BMS JB4, intake and TBI
Evolutionracewerks
Ignite Racing Fuel E98
Torco Race Fuels 108 race ⛽️

Attachment 70852
Attachment 70849
Attachment 70851
Attachment 70848

135idct 01-21-2018 06:54 PM

what's the max boost on 93 fuel?

Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! 01-22-2018 11:29 AM

:shrug...we don't have access to or run 93 fuel.

Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! 01-22-2018 11:37 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Since I forgot to post a log...

As you can see, we are quite lean due to DME BT being way too low despite high IAT spoof. Consequently thus far we have not found the answer to this issue and the search continues! We do NOT recommend doing this and this is why we are running very high octane fuel and keeping trims manageable but at the same time minimizing the amount of fuel we inject via the throttle body.

Attachment 70907

135idct 01-22-2018 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! (Post )
Since I forgot to post a log...

As you can see, we are quite lean due to DME BT being way too low despite high IAT spoof. Consequently thus far we have not found the answer to this issue and the search continues! We do NOT recommend doing this and this is why we are running very high octane fuel and keeping trims manageable but at the same time minimizing the amount of fuel we inject via the throttle body.

Attachment 70907

i don't think it's safe to run 500+whp and the AFR 15 maybe more, very high

LessIsMore 01-22-2018 11:47 AM

So the fuel system (stock + TBI) could deliver more fuel, but no one has figured out how to get the DME to request the fuel needed - is that accurate?

The B58 TBI - is that a one-off custom piece with 2 CM5 nozzles, if I understood? Do you plan to sell a PI or TBI kit for the B58?

Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! 01-22-2018 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 135idct (Post )
i don't think it's safe to run 500+whp and the AFR 15 maybe more, very high

Hence why we keep re-iterating that, why we are running the fuel we are, and why you don't see any 1/4 mile or 1/2 mile runs from us in this car. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LessIsMore (Post )
So the fuel system (stock + TBI) could deliver more fuel, but no one has figured out how to get the DME to request the fuel needed - is that accurate?

The B58 TBI - is that a one-off custom piece with 2 CM5 nozzles, if I understood? Do you plan to sell a PI or TBI kit for the B58?

We don't know what the stock fuel system is capable of yet as we have virtually no control over it. :(

We are running TBI (BMS meth with dual CM5's on PWM) but only enough to keep trims from maxing out and forcing us even leaner.

Once we have control over the DME and fueling, yes we will do a kit but at this time, it is pointless. We can throw all the fuel we want at it...over time it won't matter.

LessIsMore 01-23-2018 10:45 AM

Thanks Steve. I know that if anyone is going to figure out the B58, it's you and Terry :)

Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! 01-23-2018 07:00 PM

:drinking:

I M inluv340 01-24-2018 08:30 AM

You guys seem to be running leaner with PS2 than what Im seeing with mine. On 93 @18-9 PSI Im highest at lower RPM around 14.3 then a little before 5k dip into the 13s finishing a pull between 13.3-13.8

Bullitt1841 01-24-2018 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I M inluv340 (Post )
You guys seem to be running leaner with PS2 than what Im seeing with mine. On 93 @18-9 PSI Im highest at lower RPM around 14.3 then a little before 5k dip into the 13s finishing a pull between 13.3-13.8

With meth? Can you post a log?

I have my PS2 in the garage when I find time to put it in.

I M inluv340 01-24-2018 08:54 AM

1 Attachment(s)
X98 and 93. I just switched to E20 to get a little more octane. On 93 it gets me closure to ~95.

Bullitt1841 01-24-2018 09:13 AM

Log looks good for the B58. Is that one with 93 only or the E20 blend?

I M inluv340 01-24-2018 10:27 AM

E20

I M inluv340 01-24-2018 12:06 PM

1 Attachment(s)
DD settings ~15-16 psi

Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! 01-24-2018 08:10 PM

Post the csv. ;)

Peter @ Pure 01-24-2018 11:46 PM

In those "richer" logs the dme_bt is up as well compared to Steve's log where DME_BT is 7 only. Meaning you are running other part of the AFR table as well where AFR is programmed to be more rich. (but still quite lean)

The B58 would need flashing capabilities to run 12's afr's and also modify the stock fuel injection. I assume when AFR's come down it will also stress the stock fuel system more.

But a PS2 at 15-16 psi must not feel too bad and reasonably safe :)

I M inluv340 01-25-2018 06:11 AM

So are we saying 15-16 is max until flash tune if we want to be safe? It feels nice don’t get me wrong but it’s likely putting down the same power as my pure stage 1 at 19-20 psi which kind of defeats the purpose of the upgrade. The car feels amazing at 18-20 and I really have only run it at that a few times but if it’s not safe I can wait. I’d like to be able to run at 18 until flash tune comes out on occasion wondering if you guys think that is relatively safe or if even that would be pushing it too far? Guys are running PS1 at 23-24psi ( not saying it’s super safe). I know the PS2 is pushing much more volume but I can’t imagine 18psi is more than 22+ with PS1?
***e

Bullitt1841 01-25-2018 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I M inluv340 (Post )
So are we saying 15-16 is max until flash tune if we want to be safe? It feels nice dont get me wrong but its likely putting down the same power as my pure stage 1 at 19-20 psi which kind of defeats the purpose of the upgrade. The car feels amazing at 18-20 and I really have only run it at that a few times but if its not safe I can wait. Id like to be able to run at 18 until flash tune comes out on occasion wondering if you guys think that is relatively safe or if even that would be pushing it too far? Guys are running PS1 at 23-24psi ( not saying its super safe). I know the PS2 is pushing much more volume but I cant imagine 18psi is more than 22+ with PS1?
***e

I don't think anyone knows what "safe" for this motor is (besides BMW engineers that developed it) because we don't have enough data for what damages it yet. Without data of specific engine wear or failure, "safe" might be 14.7 AFR all the way to redline. This motor is doing all sorts of new, weird things that defy normal logic, and they're still holding together well.

Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! 01-25-2018 09:45 AM

Given that when the BT targets are closer to actual boost the DME runs AFR targets like we'd expect to see, I'd say the BMW engineers agree with us and 14.7 to redline is no bueno. ;)

We are taking precautions with our car so it doesn't hold us back from testing other components such as the turbos, Jb4 boost control, etc. In addition it also enables us to test different tuning techniques to see if we can get past this issue. However, thus far we have not been able to get AFRs and AFR targets consistent so we strongly caution you on not running too aggressively until we do. If you choose to ignore that or justify it in some other way...no problem but that is our official position on the subject. :)


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