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B58ftw 05-24-2019 08:09 AM

Big Boost Stage 3
 
Hi all,
New to this forum and have had my first BMW for only a few months now (340i). I currently have the BMS Intake, JB4, WMI, ER Down pipe, Mission Performance Tune, Mission Performance trans flash, and some NGK 97506 plugs gapped to 0.020". As I bet a lot of you can relate to, it already feels slow to me.

I'm really tempted to go with the Big Boost St. 3 turbo but is it worth it? With the WMI spacer being before the intercooler, the distribution is bound to be uneven so I can't count on that for fueling, and even though my MP tune definitely cracked the DME (I'm hitting 20+ psi on meth map) I know the stock HPFP is weak. I have xDrive so f I can crack the 500whp mark I'd be satisfied. Would appreciate people's thoughts.

Juan_BIGBOOST_TURBO 05-24-2019 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B58ftw (Post )
Hi all,
New to this forum and have had my first BMW for only a few months now (340i). I currently have the BMS Intake, JB4, WMI, ER Down pipe, Mission Performance Tune, Mission Performance trans flash, and some NGK 97506 plugs gapped to 0.020". As I bet a lot of you can relate to, it already feels slow to me.

I'm really tempted to go with the Big Boost St. 3 turbo but is it worth it? With the WMI spacer being before the intercooler, the distribution is bound to be uneven so I can't count on that for fueling, and even though my MP tune definitely cracked the DME (I'm hitting 20+ psi on meth map) I know the stock HPFP is weak. I have xDrive so f I can crack the 500whp mark I'd be satisfied. Would appreciate people's thoughts.

Hey! My car is making 538 WHP pump gas at 17-16 psi on Bootmod3 and 711 WHP at 25-26 PSI on E50 mix. Meth only will fuel you up to around 580 WHP or similar. I achieved 571 WHP on Meth and Pump gas back in the day with JB4.

Payam @ BMS 05-24-2019 11:11 AM

Our CPI kit will be released soon! No more fueling issue with larger turbos ;)

B58ftw 05-25-2019 01:21 PM

Thanks for the advice guys; hopefully I'll have saved up enough for the turbo kit by mid summer.

As far as the CPI kit, It was my understanding that with either CPI or TBI the distribution of the fuel to the cylinders would be too unequal to rely on it for strictly fueling and not just WMI; in fact I was even instructed that getting bigger nozzles was not a good idea. Has the school of thought on this since charged?I've been kind of holding out for a port injection plate to come out, but if CPI will do then that's the route I'll go.

JBoe 05-25-2019 08:58 PM

Quote:

Hey! My car is making 538 WHP pump gas at 17-16 psi on Bootmod3 and 711 WHP at 25-26 PSI on E50 mix. Meth only will fuel you up to around 580 WHP or similar. I achieved 571 WHP on Meth and Pump gas back in the day with JB4.
I've asked before on such setups, but have seen no answer. Are you making 700+ hp on stock motor? Just curious.

Quote:

As far as the CPI kit, It was my understanding that with either CPI or TBI the distribution of the fuel to the cylinders would be too unequal to rely on it for strictly fueling and not just WMI; in fact I was even instructed that getting bigger nozzles was not a good idea. Has the school of thought on this since charged? I've been kind of holding out for a port injection plate to come out, but if CPI will do then that's the route I'll go.
This is generally countered in the tuning by running a slightly richer AFR or pulling timing. Additional injection setups have been used for decades. You'll find naysayers all over, but generally that's from a lack of their own knowledge and use of such systems. Same goes for WMI or increased injector sizing on stock rails. They too have some naysayers out there. In there end, there's multiple ways to tune and adapt, but the fundamentals are there. Timing and Fuel must be used in such a way that prevent detonation, maximize power and provide reliability. Octane, IATs/Cooling and other factors must be accounted for in the timing/fuel setup to provide safety and that's part of the tuning on timing/fuel curves. It's literally all about the tune. lol.:burnrubber:

B58ftw 05-25-2019 11:29 PM

Hey JBoe,
Just playing devil's advocate here. If physically there are at least one or two cylinders that are receiving significantly less fuel than the rest, and given only one O2 sensor, is it not unreasonable to say that even with the best tune in the world you won't be able to make anywhere close to the level of power as its potential? I understand the value of a properly dialed-in tune, but the physical distribution of fuel within a throttle body fuel injection system- especially a pre-intercooler one- would seem to be of not insignificant value.

JBoe 05-26-2019 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B58ftw (Post )
Hey JBoe,
Just playing devil's advocate here. If physically there are at least one or two cylinders that are receiving significantly less fuel than the rest, and given only one O2 sensor, is it not unreasonable to say that even with the best tune in the world you won't be able to make anywhere close to the level of power as its potential? I understand the value of a properly dialed-in tune, but the physical distribution of fuel within a throttle body fuel injection system- especially a pre-intercooler one- would seem to be of not insignificant value.

Of course there's some power left on the table with such tuning, but you still end up with more power. Forced induction has been around since the mid 1800's and used velocity style fuel feeding called "carburators" lol. If you've ever tuned that setup, you'll know how difficult it is to balance for power. Especially when it involves forced induction.

As technology has progressed, better injection methods have developed. That's lead to increased compression levels at higher AFRs with better reliability. It's a tale as old as time... pun intended. :)

B58ftw 05-26-2019 06:05 PM

I was born right around the same time as OBD1 came out, so tuning carbureted cars is not something I've had the pleasure of doing; I will defer to your expertise. I guess more than anything I'm just impressed that an 11:1 compression engine with huge boost can handle the uneven CPI distribution of 91-93 octane with the right tune. I don't doubt it at all, it's just impressive.

With that said, I've very recently been in touch with a company that is coming out with a port plate injection for the B58 platform within the next couple of months. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't holding out for that for now.

JBoe 05-26-2019 06:21 PM

That's where the BEF comes in. Instead of targeting the leaner AFRs, they lower that target to a richer set point to provide the safety margins needed. There's tons of info on the net and many various application setups. I've been fortunate, over various vehicles, to run many variants. I've had failures, but they were either tuning related or due to engine components not being up to the task. I've popped many engines over the years... learning the hard way what not to do. Lol.

B58ftw 05-26-2019 06:52 PM

JBoe and my Mission Tuning BEF has so far served me quite well, despite their hostility towards the JB4 platform (but that's another story). I honestly and not facetiously appreciate the fact that we've had some very informative back-and-forth discourse with no hostility or name calling (lol, it does happen all too commonly). Is it not fair, however, to agree that port injection of anything- whether it be 91-93/water & meth, or E85- is superior to CPI or TBI? I would find it hard to believe that your answer is anything but "yes"?

JBoe 05-26-2019 07:10 PM

Depends on your definition of superior. Yes, if it's based only on HP/TQ output. However, all can get you more than what you had before and do it safely. To date, the best method is direct injection from my experience. Anything close to where it's needed helps improve efficiency.

**Edit** Added more info...

The other side of this is cost per HP/TQ. We never went into that and I've agreed to some systems being superior in gaining higher numbers. However, it's been my experience that the gains are minimal. You'd be looking at 5-10HP/TQ depending on the setup. One setup may cost $300 and the other may be $2000. At some point you have to weight out the cost effectiveness. If you want the max and have deep pockets, the choice is easy. If you want the max but can't afford it, things become a little less clear. Lol.

It's the game we all play in search for more. In the end, was the cost worth the ride? The answer to that varies per person. Just like civility... as you've mentioned before.


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