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-   -   JB4 Port Injection Meth Setup & Discusion Thread (https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53251)

Terry @ BMS 05-20-2018 05:13 PM

JB4 Port Injection Meth Setup & Discusion Thread
 
Hey guys,

As more people are running port injection meth now, we need a dedicated thread with basic how-to directions, best practices, etc.

In addition I have some planned changes on the JB4 end for mapping on these kits so it will be useful to have everyone in the same place to evaluate logs.

I'll just enter a few notes here and then we'll modify the post as needed. In addition we could use some JB4 PI meth logs posted to evaluate and refine the safety systems and mapping. :drinking:

N54:

We suggest using the BMS PI controller. The orange wire on the controller will go to an automotive 30amp relay to trigger the WMI pump. The JB4 #15 will get the PI controller white signal wire which will let the JB4 know the fuel injectors are running properly.

If equipped with an FSB from a previous JB4 meth integration you'll remove it.

JB4 Settings:

Meth flow scaling = 99
Min boost is no longer used, can be left at 10psi
Meth Additive = how much boost you want to add under WMI flow, start with 40 and work up from there
Fuel Bias on User Adjustment Page = How much meth is being injected 0-100%. I'd suggest starting at 50 across the board and evaluating from there

One loophole in the safety system is that the PI controller can determine whether or not the injectors are firing, but CAN NOT determine whether or not the meth pump is turning on. So the BEST solution is to add in a pressure sensor to your PI rail and feed that in to JB4 #15 instead of the PI controller white wire. Without doing this you'll still have the JB4 fuel trim safety (failsafe if trims max out, which they should when PI isn't actually flowing), but the sensor is a better solution.

135idct 05-20-2018 05:27 PM

tried the DPMI few WOT pulls and the tank is empty, ditch it

N54QC 05-20-2018 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 135idct (Post )
tried the DPMI few WOT pulls and the tank is empty, ditch it

If that's the case, Terry might have to think about designing a bigger tank that will work well in the trunk without taking up to much space.

Terry @ BMS 05-20-2018 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 135idct (Post )
tried the DPMI few WOT pulls and the tank is empty, ditch it

What size tank?

skirmozas 05-20-2018 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS (Post )

N54:

We suggest using the BMS PI controller. The orange wire on the controller will go to an automotive relay to trigger the WMI pump. The JB4 #15 will get the PI controller white signal wire which will let the JB4 know the fuel injectors are running properly. Meth flow scaling should be set to 99.

If equipped with an FSB from a previous JB4 meth integration you'll remove it.

Hi Terry,

Could you expand on this a little? As far as my investigation went it was the FSB wire that was supposed to stay in JB4 PIN# 15 once you're sure the injectors work fine. Because of meth safeties as far as I'm aware. Are you re-thinking the logic? Because I'm not sure if you're suggesting to get rid of the FSB wire, or the FSB itself? Will PI controller be able to trigger the meth pump, while maintaining the safeties and controlling PI? That would be awesome. Not sure if I'm getting the idea, but if I am, will there be any new hardware required to get PI to do all of this awesome stuff?

Another thing, it may be useful to post JB4 BEF suggestions, as most of the people who install meth PI do not have access to E85 and will probably run upgraded turbos. Maybe a specific meth PI BEF needs to be presented to the public? Or should they just use hybrid turbo E85 BEF?

I'd love to send some logs for evaluation, too bad my hardware is still in the boxes and will have to wait for another 2 months until the car is equipped.

There's probably too much in my post and I don't know if I managed to keep your attention, but I really think those are all valid points and questions. It's just the start of this thread, but it's also a start of better times for drivers in the UK and a large portion of Europe, who do not have access to E85.

FEDE/E92 05-21-2018 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skirmozas (Post )
Hi Terry,

Could you expand on this a little? As far as my investigation went it was the FSB wire that was supposed to stay in JB4 PIN# 15 once you're sure the injectors work fine. Because of meth safeties as far as I'm aware. Are you re-thinking the logic? Because I'm not sure if you're suggesting to get rid of the FSB wire, or the FSB itself? Will PI controller be able to trigger the meth pump, while maintaining the safeties and controlling PI? That would be awesome. Not sure if I'm getting the idea, but if I am, will there be any new hardware required to get PI to do all of this awesome stuff?

Another thing, it may be useful to post JB4 BEF suggestions, as most of the people who install meth PI do not have access to E85 and will probably run upgraded turbos. Maybe a specific meth PI BEF needs to be presented to the public? Or should they just use hybrid turbo E85 BEF?

I'd love to send some logs for evaluation, too bad my hardware is still in the boxes and will have to wait for another 2 months until the car is equipped.

There's probably too much in my post and I don't know if I managed to keep your attention, but I really think those are all valid points and questions. It's just the start of this thread, but it's also a start of better times for drivers in the UK and a large portion of Europe, who do not have access to E85.

Really would luv to know this too

Newguy123 05-21-2018 08:07 AM

Huh!? You must have a leak. Mine with the 550cc injectors at 90% IDC and the 2.3G tank uses LESS then my single nozzle setup used. Lasts forever, even after 20 1/2 mile pulls up to 160mph I still had 1/2 tank left lol


Quote:

Originally Posted by 135idct (Post )
tried the DPMI few WOT pulls and the tank is empty, ditch it


Terry @ BMS 05-21-2018 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skirmozas (Post )
Hi Terry,

Could you expand on this a little?

Yes we're going to rethink how we do this and standardize it. Meth PI has a lot more possible failure points so we need to rethink how the safety is setup. While the FSB pump current signal adds one layer of safety I think we can accomplish something similar on the software end, using the PI controller injector safety to cover some of the physical failure points. The suggested implementation will be to remove the FSB all together and let the PI controller run the pump and injectors. Then with stetings on the FSB we'll layer in additional software safeties such as checking fuel trims more closely to ensure we're getting the desired flow.

On the BEF yes we'll customize one at some point if needed but for now use RACE. Meth PI and traditional meth are very similar from a tuning perspective.

When you have logs post them in this thread and we'll use it to flesh out the safety settings and JB4 programming.

trebila 05-22-2018 01:38 AM

good to know.

so for now, PI signal is still the feedback from injectors only.
But in the future, we won't have to monitor the FSB anymore, as meth pump is generally less reliable than PI injectors.

In the past, I've seen PI signal sending good feedback (injectors opening), whereas Meth pump was not flowing at all, this is why I always suggest my customers to monitor FSB instead of PI.

keyap 05-22-2018 02:40 AM

Worth making this a sticky and having something similar in the N55 section? Appreciate there's similarities but some N55 guys don't look here.

07335i 05-22-2018 06:29 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS (Post )
The suggested implementation will be to remove the FSB all together and let the PI controller run the pump and injectors. Then with stetings on the FSB we'll layer in additional software safeties such as checking fuel trims more closely to ensure we're getting the desired flow.
.


single turbo with Pi kit and also bms meth kit.
but couldn't use map 8.
map 7 is good. but need little more WHP.
so tried to chage meth safety and meth trigger to use the map8 . but didn't seem to work it.

attached log.

Terry @ BMS 05-23-2018 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 07335i (Post )
single turbo with Pi kit and also bms meth kit.
but couldn't use map 8.
map 7 is good. but need little more WHP.
so tried to chage meth safety and meth trigger to use the map8 . but didn't seem to work it.

attached log.

Is the white PI controller wire attached to JB4?

JMVela 05-23-2018 10:49 AM

Hi All:

I am installing a Black Market PI system with stage 3 fuel pumps. I was running previously the regular BMS meth system.

In order to have the new Black Market PI system properly connected by the technician who is doing this, we will be supplying meth to the PI system through the meth pump and not through the second LPFP. Having this in mind, what cables from the BMS JB4 Port Injection controller do I need to connect to have the system working properly (To have the meth pump activated)??? There are two yellow cables, one thicker than the other. The thinner yellow one goes connected to pin 9? The thicker one does not need to be connected?

The technician who is working on the car has told me that the thicker yellow cable have 12 volts all the time. Is this is normal??

Thanks in advance for your advises.

Payam @ BMS 05-23-2018 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMVela (Post )
Hi All:

I am installing a Black Market PI system with stage 3 fuel pumps. I was running previously the regular BMS meth system.

In order to have the new Black Market PI system properly connected by the technician who is doing this, we will be supplying meth to the PI system through the meth pump and not through the second LPFP. Having this in mind, what cables from the BMS JB4 Port Injection controller do I need to connect to have the system working properly (To have the meth pump activated)??? There are two yellow cables, one thicker than the other. The thinner yellow one goes connected to pin 9? The thicker one does not need to be connected?

The technician who is working on the car has told me that the thicker yellow cable have 12 volts all the time. Is this is normal??

Thanks in advance for your advises.

The thicker wire is a trigger wire, that should be connected to the relay then to the meth pump.

JMVela 05-23-2018 11:05 AM

Understood!!

But why the cable have 12 volts all the time?? Is this normal???

Does I need to completely remove the FSB??

If yes and since I haven't disconnect it yet, this is the reason of the thicker yellow cable having 12 volts all the time?

Thanks

07335i 05-23-2018 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS (Post )
Is the white PI controller wire attached to JB4?

yes i did.

JMVela 05-23-2018 11:36 AM

Terry:

I know you are all busy, but I need some help, to figure this out. Car has,been seating on the shop since yesterday because of this situation. I understand that this is not your fault, but I will like our assistance in this matter to see if I can solve this issue before the day end.

Thanks

Terry @ BMS 05-23-2018 12:14 PM

Photo of bms pi controller? Not sure which wire you are referring to.

JMVela 05-23-2018 12:42 PM

Terry

I do not know how to bring the photos to this thread. Photos were sent to your email.

Terry @ BMS 05-23-2018 01:46 PM

Some genius here decided instead of orange wire to use a thicker yellow wire last batch. Thin wire with DSUB pin goes to #9 for N54, and thicker wire provides up to 1 amp to trigger a relay to run your meth pump. It may have 12v at rest via a meter on the loose wire but would be almost no current.

trebila 05-23-2018 01:59 PM

Terry, I've tuned maybe 20 PMI, always monitoring the FSB instead of PI kit, for more safety, so I don't get why you tell to not use FSB.
can you elaborate ? ;)

JMVela 05-23-2018 05:10 PM

Terry, when hou have chance please advise. Car still on the shop upon the issue is solved. Need to take the car out, PLEASE assist us on this as soon as possible.

Thanks

Terry @ BMS 05-23-2018 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMVela (Post )
Terry, when hou have chance please advise. Car still on the shop upon the issue is solved. Need to take the car out, PLEASE assist us on this as soon as possible.

Thanks

Not clear to me what your issue is. You asked which wire was what and we informed you on that. What's the problem now?

Terry @ BMS 05-23-2018 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebila (Post )
Terry, I've tuned maybe 20 PMI, always monitoring the FSB instead of PI kit, for more safety, so I don't get why you tell to not use FSB.
can you elaborate ? ;)

There are several failure points in a setup like this. Main ones:

1) Pump doesn't turn on or fluid is empty. e.g. pump pressure.
2) Fuel injectors don't open at all or just one specific injector fails to open.

The FSB would help cover issue 1 but it can't detect the injectors not opening. The PI controller can detect injectors not opening but can't verify pump pressure.

Thinking it over I think the best and easiest solution is to ditch the FSB all together in these implementations. The PI controller is then feeding injector information in to the JB4, and we can use fuel trim checks of trims higher than expected and bank to bank trim variances, to quickly spot the same issues the FSB would be spotting.

Logan 05-23-2018 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS (Post )
There are several failure points in a setup like this. Main ones:

1) Pump doesn't turn on or fluid is empty. e.g. pump pressure.
2) Fuel injectors don't open at all or just one specific injector fails to open.

The FSB would help cover issue 1 but it can't detect the injectors not opening. The PI controller can detect injectors not opening but can't verify pump pressure.

Thinking it over I think the best and easiest solution is to ditch the FSB all together in these implementations. The PI controller is then feeding injector information in to the JB4, and we can use fuel trim checks of trims higher than expected and bank to bank trim variances, to quickly spot the same issues the FSB would be spotting.

I have been on the fence to go PI.will be watching for some results.


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