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-   -   B58, JB4 and throttle closures? (https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55216)

Snowman 09-26-2018 09:57 AM

B58, JB4 and throttle closures?
 
I just picked up a used M140 and are trying to read up on the whole JB4 and throttle closure issue.
I found several threads from long ago describing the problem, but i have not been able to find any information that the problem has been fixed.
I have tried asking the question in the FAQ JB4 thats pinned up top, without any replies..

So am i simply better of waiting for MHD and other companies looking into the B58 or does the Jb4 work currently?
I have no interest in spending my money on a prototype that only makes the car run lumpy...

jrdoming 09-26-2018 01:36 PM

I have no throttle closure issues on map 1 or 2 but can't comment about map 3. From my reading the throttle closures tend to crop up with a p1pe installed.

JBoe 09-26-2018 09:04 PM

I only have them when boost spikes a bit, but that's OE design. Otherwise nothing. Stock, I had more closures than with the JB4 on any map 91 Octane could handle. Finally got octane and WMI installed. Now it's a beast and my logs can prove it.

Biggest issue is that the B58 is a tricky machine to tune. Stock DME does a lot to keep it engine safe. A little overly safe IMHO. JB4 cleared up a lot and fine tuning it allowed me to go further than I ever thought I would with this engine/car.

Terry @ BMS 09-29-2018 09:19 AM

Throttle is largely misunderstood. But if you have a specific log we can tell you if you have normal behavior or abnormal behavior you'll want to correct with JB4 EWG adjustments.

Bullitt1841 09-29-2018 05:45 PM

JB4 with EWG wires give you incredible amounts of control over the tuning and it's very easy to get rid of any throttle issues that may show up.

Snowman 09-30-2018 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS (Post )
Throttle is largely misunderstood. But if you have a specific log we can tell you if you have normal behavior or abnormal behavior you'll want to correct with JB4 EWG adjustments.

I asked these questions because i was thinking of getting the JB4 and put it on the car.
However ive done some research now and there seems to be quite alot of reports of throttle closue issues when you combine JB4/tuning boxes and *****ted *********, which i intend of fitting.
So i will just wait for MHD to release their fix and stay away from JB4 at this point.
I have no intention of paying lots of money on a unit that causes my car to run jerky.

Bullitt1841 09-30-2018 07:23 AM

Did you not read my post?

Terry @ BMS 09-30-2018 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post )
I asked these questions because i was thinking of getting the JB4 and put it on the car.
However ive done some research now and there seems to be quite alot of reports of throttle closue issues when you combine JB4/tuning boxes and *****ted *********, which i intend of fitting.
So i will just wait for MHD to release their fix and stay away from JB4 at this point.
I have no intention of paying lots of money on a unit that causes my car to run jerky.

So you don't have a JB4 yet nor a log of how your specific car is running but want me to provide you with "hypothetical" JB4 tuning advice? Generally, if running exhaust modifications you'll need to set FUA = 20 to offset dutycycle causing boost to go over target and corresponding excessive throttle closure.

In my testing the exhaust mods added zero power or benefit, I would not suggest them in most situations, whether tuning with JB4, flash tuning, or both.

bavarianmw 09-30-2018 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt1841 (Post )
JB4 with EWG wires give you incredible amounts of control over the tuning and it's very easy to get rid of any throttle issues that may show up.

Hey bullitt, do you mind looking at the logs / questions in my post history? I have a feeling I can get my p1pe setup tuned in better with the "control" you speak of, just I do not know what to try. It's already running pretty well on 11test, map 6, 16 lbs but I wonder if it could be even better. Only thing I've changed is FUA 10, just saw Terry suggested 20. Might try that.

jrdoming 09-30-2018 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS (Post )
So you don't have a JB4 yet nor a log of how your specific car is running but want me to provide you with "hypothetical" JB4 tuning advice? Generally, if running exhaust modifications you'll need to set FUA = 20 to offset dutycycle causing boost to go over target and corresponding excessive throttle closure.

In my testing the exhaust mods added zero power or benefit, I would not suggest them in most situations, whether tuning with JB4, flash tuning, or both.

Terry is there ever a point where you *need* to modify your pipe/exhaust due to concern over exhaust gas temp etc? Much like the stage 2 "tunes" saying you need some type of aftermarket ******** to run them long term.

Snowman 09-30-2018 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS (Post )
So you don't have a JB4 yet nor a log of how your specific car is running but want me to provide you with "hypothetical" JB4 tuning advice? Generally, if running exhaust modifications you'll need to set FUA = 20 to offset dutycycle causing boost to go over target and corresponding excessive throttle closure.

In my testing the exhaust mods added zero power or benefit, I would not suggest them in most situations, whether tuning with JB4, flash tuning, or both.

Yes i was interested in peoples general opinion with Jb4 and the B58 platform, perhaps im the only one that wants to know what to expect before buying this?
Or is that why there seems to be reviews or basicly every product available to purchase?

I'm not interested in power benefits with the *****, i want the added sound and a car that performs as before. So if adding a Jb4 would make the car run jerky, i would not be interested in it...

Had no idea that asking for opinions and peoples experience would be considered such a strange question :shrug

Snowman 09-30-2018 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt1841 (Post )
Did you not read my post?

Oh yes i did.
However i've done some research now and there are more people with JB4 with or without dec@t that are experiencing jerky/lumpy power delivery during WOT than people with positive experiences.
So at this point im staying clear of JB4 until the results seem to be more clear.

The guy i bought the car from even had tried a JB4 on the M140 and the same unit on a 440i and a 320 B48, all cars behaved strangely with jerky power output during WOT.
I have no intention on forking out 600-700usd on something that makes the car worse. Im sure it will be resolved in the future, but until that point im staying away.

Nugs 09-30-2018 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrdoming (Post )
Terry is there ever a point where you *need* to modify your pipe/exhaust due to concern over exhaust gas temp etc? Much like the stage 2 "tunes" saying you need some type of aftermarket ******** to run them long term.

I'm running a "stage 2" flash tune and a ** only got me an extra 10whp.
But I figure the reduced back pressure is better for the engine and turbo long term.
I have no data to back that up though.

JBoe 09-30-2018 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post )
Yes i was interested in peoples general opinion with Jb4 and the B58 platform, perhaps im the only one that wants to know what to expect before buying this?
Or is that why there seems to be reviews or basicly every product available to purchase?

I'm not interested in power benefits with the *****, i want the added sound and a car that performs as before. So if adding a Jb4 would make the car run jerky, i would not be interested in it...

Had no idea that asking for opinions and peoples experience would be considered such a strange question :shrug

I've been reading these boards for a bit now and haven't seen the issues you're referring to in any except when:
1) Users try to jump to higher maps without octane/fuel to support it.
2) Users don't have default settings prior to using the unit.
3) Users try to tune their car without posting logs for help and don't listen when help is provided.
4) Users don't allow FF to fully learn.
5) OBD cable issues.
6) User install issues and/or connector issues.
7) Rare few have had an issue with older boards. BMS provided free replacements in each instance I've read about.

After all that, what you tend to see are user issues. If you want a slap it on and go box... get JB+. You still have to let DME learn a bit, but user error side is removed if installed properly. If you want the most you can get, you'll need to tune.

That's what JB4 offers. It just happens to give you a few starting maps to build off of and from there you need to tune it in for more. This forum/BMS offer some of the best support I've ever seen for FREE! I've been building cars and tuning for years with Split Second, AEM, Emanage, Holley, Fast, etc. None of them offer map/log reviews and support for free.

It seems more like you came on the site with a negative agenda and nothing was going to change that. In the end, intentional or not, that's how it's coming off. It's your money and choice. My advice would be not to discredit the JB4 until you've actually tried it. Instead, ask your questions... get your answers... say thanks and move on. Complaining about something you haven't even tried, goes back to childish notions that benefit no one.

Snowman 10-04-2018 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBoe (Post )
I've been reading these boards for a bit now and haven't seen the issues you're referring to in any except when:
1) Users try to jump to higher maps without octane/fuel to support it.
2) Users don't have default settings prior to using the unit.
3) Users try to tune their car without posting logs for help and don't listen when help is provided.
4) Users don't allow FF to fully learn.
5) OBD cable issues.
6) User install issues and/or connector issues.
7) Rare few have had an issue with older boards. BMS provided free replacements in each instance I've read about.

After all that, what you tend to see are user issues. If you want a slap it on and go box... get JB+. You still have to let DME learn a bit, but user error side is removed if installed properly. If you want the most you can get, you'll need to tune.

That's what JB4 offers. It just happens to give you a few starting maps to build off of and from there you need to tune it in for more. This forum/BMS offer some of the best support I've ever seen for FREE! I've been building cars and tuning for years with Split Second, AEM, Emanage, Holley, Fast, etc. None of them offer map/log reviews and support for free.

It seems more like you came on the site with a negative agenda and nothing was going to change that. In the end, intentional or not, that's how it's coming off. It's your money and choice. My advice would be not to discredit the JB4 until you've actually tried it. Instead, ask your questions... get your answers... say thanks and move on. Complaining about something you haven't even tried, goes back to childish notions that benefit no one.


You are just so full of **** that it makes me laugh out loud while reading your post.
I assume you have not read any of my posts?
Do you seriously think that i have been at this forum since early 2017 and made 271 posts about how bad JB4 is?
If i would have been bashing JB4 nonstop for 271 posts i would surely and rightfully have been thrown out from here.

I have had Jb4 or 3 different cars, N55 EWG, VAG EA888.3 and N54, all with great success.
I'm aware the B58 is a brand new engine with a new and advanced DME, which is why im asking these questions, which would be common sense for ANYONE.
Who doesnt research a larger investment or that might affect a larger investment? :character0264:

I'm well aware of the ups and downs with the Jb4 in general. But since the B58 is a new engine im also aware that ANY product will have to be adapted for the new usage. If one would compare the initial software release of the B58 Jb4 with where we are today, im sure there would be a large diffrence and BMS will surely continue updating the software and algorithms inside the JB4 adding more features and performance along the road.

To my knowledge MHD is working on the same tool that was used to unlock and flash the F-series N55, for the B58.
Once that is released im sure it wont be long untill BMS has released a BEF that will unlock the full potential of the B58+Jb4 combo.
Untill that happends or im 100% that the Jb4 will provide a smooth power delivery, i wont be buying a JB4.

Also in general i would agree about the BMS support. However in the B58 case i asked some questions in the FAQ thread, that were just basic questions. They all got overlooked until i got tired of waiting for a proper answer from any staff, even though they posted several times in that thread. Now i have received a reply on my questions, that was however from a forum member and not from anyone from BMS.
If i just could have gotten a reply on the questions that i initially asked, i could have bought a jb4..

Also im fairly sure that the issues my friend experienced with Jb4 and the M140, 440 and B48 320 could have been corrected with EWG-wires and newer software. But the fact is that the issue with jerky power delivery is still there and the Jb4, as it is priced currently, would cost more than a MHD unlock+flash, while not really adding much benefits except the possibilty to change boost settings on the fly.

Bullitt1841 10-04-2018 03:30 PM

You need a serious attitude adjustment if you want people to listen to you here. This is not E90post.

Terry @ BMS 10-04-2018 04:29 PM

If you add in a d@wnpipe the stock tuning will not be as smooth. You can mostly tune that out with a JB4 + EWG connection. My advice, just skip the d@wnpipe all together. As to the JB4 it's easy to try. If you're not happy with it then return it or resell it and move on to the next option. But coming in and trying to lecture guys here (myself included) who drive and tune B58s daily, seems like a waste of everyone's time.

jbourne 10-04-2018 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS (Post )
If you add in a d@wnpipe the stock tuning will not be as smooth. You can mostly tune that out with a JB4 + EWG connection. My advice, just skip the d@wnpipe all together. As to the JB4 it's easy to try. If you're not happy with it then return it or resell it and move on to the next option. But coming in and trying to lecture guys here (myself included) who drive and tune B58s daily, seems like a waste of everyone's time.

uh oh,, so, I own 320i B48, does adding a custom c@tless d@wnpipe is a bad idea? i've been using both (jb4 + custom c@tless d@wnpipe) on map3 since the beginning.. can you please clarify on this?

dRDiesel 10-05-2018 09:40 AM

i have a CG c@tted and never experience throttle closures. I know the c@tless experience this more and it can be adjusted with the EWG pigtail.

Terry @ BMS 10-05-2018 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbourne (Post )
uh oh,, so, I own 320i B48, does adding a custom c@tless d@wnpipe is a bad idea? i've been using both (jb4 + custom c@tless d@wnpipe) on map3 since the beginning.. can you please clarify on this?

With the B48 the gains are probably lower than the B58, which are already really tiny. But if you need tuning help post a log and we'll help you sort it. Using the EWG connector you can easily tune out throttle closure from exhaust mods.

JBoe 10-05-2018 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt1841 (Post )
You need a serious attitude adjustment if you want people to listen to you here. This is not E90post.

Thank you, sir. :drinking: He kinda proved my point. It's unfortunate written correspondence tends to reflect the reader's emotional take. I didn't mean to offend... only advise how it read. Again... my take on his words. Sometimes I just shouldn't post. Lol.:burnrubber:

jbourne 10-05-2018 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS (Post )
With the B48 the gains are probably lower than the B58, which are already really tiny. But if you need tuning help post a log and we'll help you sort it. Using the EWG connector you can easily tune out throttle closure from exhaust mods.

okay, gonna make log and post later, see if i'm gonna need EWG after. thanks Terry.

kyleralph078 10-16-2018 11:28 AM

sorry to hijack the post but I'm just wondering if anyone could log at some logs? I'm having some issues and just curious if its something obvious I've done or some settings to change? not on here to badmouth or be negative just genuinely need some help here. any help/advice is greatly appreciated.

kind regards
kyle

dRDiesel 10-17-2018 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleralph078 (Post )
sorry to hijack the post but I'm just wondering if anyone could log at some logs? I'm having some issues and just curious if its something obvious I've done or some settings to change? not on here to badmouth or be negative just genuinely need some help here. any help/advice is greatly appreciated.

kind regards
kyle

You can make a thread and post the logs here and someone will get back to you quicker rather then in here: https://www.n54tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=46


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