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fostergfx@gmail.com 03-25-2016 08:55 AM

Internals for n55
 
I have been doing a lot of research and have seen that guys have basically just broke 600 whp on the N55. A while back I was looking for internals and found rods pistons and everything. I haven't seen anythign with people building the internals, can you build the engine on top of the stage 2 turbo and everything else that produces 550 whp and get more? Maybe stage 3 turbo with built internals maybe get what the n54 can get? I'm not as informed on everything and just learning what this engine is capable of. Just haven't seen anyone talk about internals here

fostergfx@gmail.com 03-25-2016 08:57 AM

also what about a more aggressive cam?

Anytyme 03-25-2016 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fostergfx@gmail.com (Post )
I have been doing a lot of research and have seen that guys have basically just broke 600 whp on the N55. A while back I was looking for internals and found rods pistons and everything. I haven't seen anythign with people building the internals, can you build the engine on top of the stage 2 turbo and everything else that produces 550 whp and get more? Maybe stage 3 turbo with built internals maybe get what the n54 can get? I'm not as informed on everything and just learning what this engine is capable of. Just haven't seen anyone talk about internals here

No need to build the motor until it blows and needs rebuilding. No one has really pushed the limits of the motor due to prior limitations such as tuning and turbo options. A couple of us are now running bigger turbos so we'll be pushing and testing limits.

PR3CI5N335i 03-28-2016 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anytyme (Post )
No need to build the motor until it blows and needs rebuilding. No one has really pushed the limits of the motor due to prior limitations such as tuning and turbo options. A couple of us are now running bigger turbos so we'll be pushing and testing limits.

Any dyno #'s with your current N55 VM top mount? I didn't know VM had a kit for N55's yet.

Peter @ Pure 03-28-2016 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR3CI5N335i (Post )
Any dyno #'s with your current N55 VM top mount? I didn't know VM had a kit for N55's yet.

I think there are a few projects going on but none have released an official kit nor official numbers for N55 big turbo project. I think Anytime's project my be the 1st to head somewhere. I would prefer however a bottom mount kit since it's more stealth :)

Anytyme 03-29-2016 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR3CI5N335i (Post )
Any dyno #'s with your current N55 VM top mount? I didn't know VM had a kit for N55's yet.

Kit isn't installed yet, I'm hoping within the next two weeks to have car done. Manifold was out for ceramic coating and should be back today. I'm currently sourcing parts to do a manual swap so a lot to do here.

Lego864 05-16-2016 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anytyme (Post )
Kit isn't installed yet, I'm hoping within the next two weeks to have car done. Manifold was out for ceramic coating and should be back today. I'm currently sourcing parts to do a manual swap so a lot to do here.

Any updates on your build?

Lowon 05-16-2016 11:07 PM

Coming from a guy who has built 2 different motors (fa20, ej257) 4 times total (1.forged internals in my fa20 and ported heads, 2. Forged internals 500whp rated ej257 and forged internals and ported heads. 3.750whp ej257 fully rebuilt long block cams, crank, etc. 4. Closed deck block 1000whp rated ej257) I think I have a few words of advice.
1. Don't waste money until your motor blows trust me engine builds cost so much, they aren't just foreged internals boom done. No you have to factor in labour, machining so pistons have perfect tolerances, new belts, pumps, lines, clutches, seals etc. Then break in fluid change retune etc.
2. Forged internal cars literally do not last as long as a stock motor because the forged pistons don't expand and contract much. This causes cold starts to rattle the piston inside the cylinder until it is hot enough to expand to operating size and seal. Related cold starts wear out rings and you begin to burn oil, that's why cold start idling is crucial to longevity. Built motors generally go to 120,000 miles before oil burning becomes a major issue.

Now onto BMW stuff:
1. The 600whp turbo is a prototype and not yet offered as many other have already said.
2.tuning is quite limited, but I've found ess is able to patch the ECU and enable corrections and retuning through obd2 after initial bench flash, so in theory tuning isn't a big problem as if now.
3.afrs, F series n55 EWG runs really really lean, and tend to misfire like crazy when set richer so it may be risky pushing 600whp on lean afrs.
4. Octane, on higher e85 mixes the F series tend to misfire as top end fuelling is still an issue with no one having developed an ethanol BEF yet. Race gas only option may be expensive and I'm not sure if it has the same issues. Leaning on meth for that much power is asinine in my opinion.
5.transmission: this may be the hardest issue to tackle (trust me I had Shep trans build my sti tranny and that costed alot of money, and after hard track days over time even 1000 wtq synchros and gears still fail).
***REMEBER TORQUE IS THE FACTOR THAT KILLS TRANSMISSIONS
1. You zf8speed or automatic transmission users better learn how to drive stick, as I'm not sure how the auto tranny torque converter will deal with this kind of power when real "sticky" tires are used. So you'd need to do a manual transmission swap.
Otherwise you'd have to get a stronger zf gear box but I've looked into that you'd need adapters to fit it to the engine, new software and computers to control it and that may not play nice or even work with your current DME, you'd need new mounting points and reinforcements as the new transmission is larger (some of then are) and heavier so it may not clear some underbody components. All that being said you're looking at over $20,000. So it's cheaper to go manual.

Manual: 1. Get the f8x clutch, not sure if the stick mnaual can handle much more than 500wtq as it is only rated for 370tq.
2. (Most reliable and best option, grab an "M" tranny as they have beefed up internals rated for more power) for 2 series guys grab an m2 tranny, 3/4 series grab an m3/m4 tranny. Clutches in those can handle up to 700wtq.

That's my opinion on transmissions.


That's my opinions on a 600whp build, hope I can be helpful. PM me if you want more help, and I'll do my best.

Anytyme 06-02-2016 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anytyme (Post )
Kit isn't installed yet, I'm hoping within the next two weeks to have car done. Manifold was out for ceramic coating and should be back today. I'm currently sourcing parts to do a manual swap so a lot to do here.

Haha I just saw this quote about the next two weeks and its now two moths later:shrug:shrug:shrug. To be fair it got to Cali the end of April and they had a huge project they had to complete, which they thought they would've completed in time. so now i just patiently wait.

Anytyme 06-02-2016 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowon (Post )
Coming from a guy who has built 2 different motors (fa20, ej257) 4 times total (1.forged internals in my fa20 and ported heads, 2. Forged internals 500whp rated ej257 and forged internals and ported heads. 3.750whp ej257 fully rebuilt long block cams, crank, etc. 4. Closed deck block 1000whp rated ej257) I think I have a few words of advice.
1. Don't waste money until your motor blows trust me engine builds cost so much, they aren't just foreged internals boom done. No you have to factor in labour, machining so pistons have perfect tolerances, new belts, pumps, lines, clutches, seals etc. Then break in fluid change retune etc.
2. Forged internal cars literally do not last as long as a stock motor because the forged pistons don't expand and contract much. This causes cold starts to rattle the piston inside the cylinder until it is hot enough to expand to operating size and seal. Related cold starts wear out rings and you begin to burn oil, that's why cold start idling is crucial to longevity. Built motors generally go to 120,000 miles before oil burning becomes a major issue.

Now onto BMW stuff:
1. The 600whp turbo is a prototype and not yet offered as many other have already said.
2.tuning is quite limited, but I've found ess is able to patch the ECU and enable corrections and retuning through obd2 after initial bench flash, so in theory tuning isn't a big problem as if now.
3.afrs, F series n55 EWG runs really really lean, and tend to misfire like crazy when set richer so it may be risky pushing 600whp on lean afrs.
4. Octane, on higher e85 mixes the F series tend to misfire as top end fuelling is still an issue with no one having developed an ethanol BEF yet. Race gas only option may be expensive and I'm not sure if it has the same issues. Leaning on meth for that much power is asinine in my opinion.
5.transmission: this may be the hardest issue to tackle (trust me I had Shep trans build my sti tranny and that costed alot of money, and after hard track days over time even 1000 wtq synchros and gears still fail).
***REMEBER TORQUE IS THE FACTOR THAT KILLS TRANSMISSIONS
1. You zf8speed or automatic transmission users better learn how to drive stick, as I'm not sure how the auto tranny torque converter will deal with this kind of power when real "sticky" tires are used. So you'd need to do a manual transmission swap.
Otherwise you'd have to get a stronger zf gear box but I've looked into that you'd need adapters to fit it to the engine, new software and computers to control it and that may not play nice or even work with your current DME, you'd need new mounting points and reinforcements as the new transmission is larger (some of then are) and heavier so it may not clear some underbody components. All that being said you're looking at over $20,000. So it's cheaper to go manual.

Manual: 1. Get the f8x clutch, not sure if the stick mnaual can handle much more than 500wtq as it is only rated for 370tq.
2. (Most reliable and best option, grab an "M" tranny as they have beefed up internals rated for more power) for 2 series guys grab an m2 tranny, 3/4 series grab an m3/m4 tranny. Clutches in those can handle up to 700wtq.

That's my opinion on transmissions.


That's my opinions on a 600whp build, hope I can be helpful. PM me if you want more help, and I'll do my best.

Agreed on most of your points. I too have purchased a manual swap, and went with spec clutch rated at over 650tq. Tuning is limited but i've found an avenue that may work, but won't disclose until I have the car back and test it out.

Lowon 06-02-2016 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anytyme (Post )
Agreed on most of your points. I too have purchased a manual swap, and went with spec clutch rated at over 650tq. Tuning is limited but i've found an avenue that may work, but won't disclose until I have the car back and test it out.

You can run a standalone ecu like the haltech.

Mike_L 06-02-2016 12:56 PM

The ZF 8 speed Automatics can hold way more than any manual could ever dream of. The same basic transmission is bolted to the Hellcat and the Bentley V12s. I see zero issues with the 8HP90 holding 1000ft/lbs for 100k miles, and making it fit will cost way less than a manual swap (all 8HPs use the same case. Info here and here.) and you won't give up performance in the process.

Lowon 06-02-2016 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_L (Post )
The ZF 8 speed Automatics can hold way more than any manual could ever dream of. The same basic transmission is bolted to the Hellcat and the Bentley V12s. I see zero issues with the 8HP90 holding 1000ft/lbs for 100k miles, and making it fit will cost way less than a manual swap (all 8HPs use the same case. Info here and here.) and you won't give up performance in the process.

Depends on model, there are different models of the zf box, I called zf and they said for higher torque to buy a different model, but retrofitting the computers aren't easy.

Depending on type of auto they can or cannot hold as much powers as manuals. Torque converter based autos like the zf cannot hold as much as a manual. Take a look here or other forums it's been discussed and proven manuals or dcts can hold tons of torque not torque convert based transmissions.

Examples are like drag gtrs from ams it's a DUAL clutch auto not a torque converter. Or underground racing lamps dct tranny can take power no problems. But those n54 guys with torque converters often run into issues.

Lowon 06-02-2016 02:00 PM

Oh btw, on the m235i, 335i, 435i it has the zf 8hp45 I believe. But try taking the car out to a drag strip with pure stage 2 and Mickey Thompson drag radials that actually hook up. Then launch it over 2000 rpm and let's see how that torque converter survives. With manuals they may survive a few of those launches with no issue but later on you'll have to change synchros sooner.

Mike_L 06-02-2016 03:05 PM

Did you read the articles I linked? The cases of all the 8HPs are the same. The 8HP90 internals can go in the 8HP45.

You think torque converter autos can't take power? Think again. What do you think every drag car uses? A Powerglide, with a torque converter.

Lowon 06-02-2016 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_L (Post )
Did you read the articles I linked? The cases of all the 8HPs are the same. The 8HP90 internals can go in the 8HP45.

You think torque converter autos can't take power? Think again. What do you think every drag car uses? A Powerglide, with a torque converter.

Call zf see if they'll sell you the internals. They declined and said you'd have to buy a new transmission.

After that how do you solve the software driving the transmission? Exactly if doesn't have the software you're gonna have to go to a different manufacturer and it may not work with BMW's ecus.

Not all drag cars use a power glide, maybe older muscle cars barely any inports use it.

Even 1000+whp supras use manual boxes with sequential shifter. All the new modern day drag built cars use Shep trans rebuilt dcts why?
1. They shift faster than torque converters.
2. Can actually hold the power during launches without damaging the impeller because in manuals the clutch plates are separate, in a torque converter you'll have to rely on the brake to hold the the car from going while the simpler is under huge stresses.

So when you figure out how to make the torque converters on the BMW's last longer tell me, because zf won't sell you components, and after that figure out software.

Superfoig 06-02-2016 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_L (Post )
Did you read the articles I linked? The cases of all the 8HPs are the same. The 8HP90 internals can go in the 8HP45.

You think torque converter autos can't take power? Think again. What do you think every drag car uses? A Powerglide, with a torque converter.

My zf on my 435i idrive pretty much exploded on a pure stage 2 and section 305 r888's all around (yeah it bluges) while launching at a quarter mile race.... just depends on how much grip you have i
guess, and guess what you can't fix these trannys so I'm out $8,000-$12,000 if I want a new auto.

So far after my manual swap it hasn't failed yet after 8 races on r888. So IMHO manuals are better.... i heard Terry say here manuals are needed for big power.

Btw did you know autos have solenoid issues at high power levels. I'm pretty sure dmac experienced it that's why he swapped to a manual. Ive had it happen to me too so I pretty much hate torque converts autos now...

Mike_L 06-02-2016 04:52 PM

http://www.suprastore.com/tosutop14mit.html

A majority of the quickest Supras use Powerglides or TH400s. Besides Supras and GTRs, I couldn't care less what the ricers do. I was talking Pro Stock, not 4 cylinder econoboxes.

No computer work needed to use 8HP90 clutches and internals. ZF will probably sell them to tranny shops, and if they won't, get them from a junk yard. And Precision Industries makes billet converters that will hold virtually anything.

bimmerislife 06-02-2016 06:01 PM

My synchros went even with my MT 2012 335i xdrive with fbo and jb4 before i went pure stage 2 :"( but it was my first MT car and i did launch it a lot and I did do some very bad launches. Thank god my dealership was nice and gave me a brand new tranny for the low price of $50 ;) also burned my clutch once, GOD this car has been through a lot...

Cory S 06-06-2016 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_L (Post )
http://www.suprastore.com/tosutop14mit.html

I couldn't care less what the ricers do. I was talking Pro Stock, not 4 cylinder econoboxes.

:bellyroll::bellyroll::bellyroll::bellyroll:

Mike.... You are awesome. (and correct about TH400's and glides used 85-90% of the time)

Superfoig 06-06-2016 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory S (Post )
:bellyroll::bellyroll::bellyroll::bellyroll:

Mike.... You are awesome. (and correct about TH400's and glides used 85-90% of the time)

What about over 2000whp applications? There's nothing left after 1500whp...

Mike_L 06-06-2016 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superfoig (Post )
What about over 2000whp applications? There's nothing left after 1500whp...

Actually, there are quite a few ProStockers running Powerglides with over 3000hp. Some run Jerico sequentials too. Anything but manuals. Too slow, too inconsistent.

Lowon 06-06-2016 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superfoig (Post )
What about over 2000whp applications? There's nothing left after 1500whp...

Well actually
1. Some expensive as crap dct that'll be a pain to retro fit
2. A really well built manual
3. Aparantly a t400 but that's going to cost a crap ton of money to upgrade to handle over 1500whp. But it's only 3 gears so not much use outta drag racing.

(It's torque that breaks transmissions, not hp)

Lowon 06-06-2016 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_L (Post )
Actually, there are quite a few ProStockers running Powerglides with over 3000hp. Some run Jerico sequentials too. Anything but manuals. Too slow, too inconsistent.

Lol again with the manual bashing....
"Too slow and too in consistent" has nothing to do with how much a transmission can handle. It has to do with the driver and by the looks of it can you even drive a manual properly if you're making Inconsistent shifts? Even if you could drive manual it doesn't sound like you can do it well.

This is outta topic for what the ask obviously said, but why do you think gt3 or dtm drivers prefer a manual over an auto? For the control and feel they offer, something clicking a paddle doesn't really provide.

Cory S 06-06-2016 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superfoig (Post )
What about over 2000whp applications? There's nothing left after 1500whp...

Most use a Hutch built transmission. Funny cars and Top fuel are clutched with direct drive.

1200-1800hp cars under 3200lbs, mostly all still go with a heavily built powerglide to this day however.


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