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Default 11-21-2016, 01:46 AM

Im on my third set of turbos, sick of the trouble and expense of having them swapped out and shipped to the USA every 12 months for fixing (at $4K outta pocket each time)
Will you guarantee the reliability of your turbos and pay for turbo removal/shipping/repair and reinstall under warranty??
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E92 420 E92 420 is offline
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Default 11-21-2016, 03:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socket
Im on my third set of turbos, sick of the trouble and expense of having them swapped out and shipped to the USA every 12 months for fixing (at $4K outta pocket each time)
Will you guarantee the reliability of your turbos and pay for turbo removal/shipping/repair and reinstall under warranty??
All from the same manufacturer?


UK PTF TUNED
TD TURBO 335i
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Default 11-21-2016, 03:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92 420
All from the same manufacturer?
No
That's why i'm checking the guarantee given on these
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Default 11-21-2016, 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socket
Will you guarantee the reliability of your turbos and pay for turbo removal/shipping/repair and reinstall under warranty??
I've never seen a manufacturer cover labor as part of their warranty, so I wouldn't hold my breath. Being that you are spending such large sums of money, why not simply go single? You could already have been just post the first two incidents you experienced.
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08_335i 08_335i is offline
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Default 11-21-2016, 02:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socket
Im on my third set of turbos, sick of the trouble and expense of having them swapped out and shipped to the USA every 12 months for fixing (at $4K outta pocket each time)
Will you guarantee the reliability of your turbos and pay for turbo removal/shipping/repair and reinstall under warranty??
Lol, no vendor is dumb enough to say they will cover labor\expenses like that. They will cover their product failure, obviously if stated. Go single turbo if you're tired of switching out failed twins. You've already paid for a single turbo setup with all the fueling upgrades needed plus some by doing twins 3 times.
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Default 11-22-2016, 12:34 AM

Yep agreed with the ST comments... Im in Aussie, finding a RHD turbo kit is like finding unicorn poo...... ok for you LHD peeps lol That said am working on ST solution
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ferocity02 ferocity02 is offline
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Default 11-22-2016, 01:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socket
Im on my third set of turbos, sick of the trouble and expense of having them swapped out and shipped to the USA every 12 months for fixing (at $4K outta pocket each time)
Will you guarantee the reliability of your turbos and pay for turbo removal/shipping/repair and reinstall under warranty??
Who made them?


2007 E90 335i Pre-LCI
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Default putting to bed our testing of the Stage 1 turbos - 11-24-2016, 02:20 AM

Time for one last post covering our testing with the "Stage 1-like-objects" in the car. As discussed previously, these turbos have commonly-available 14T-inspired billet compressors and clipped rotors. The test car is fueled with E85 supported by water methanol injection. Here are the best logs we could get from the setup:

Via the JB4 piggyback:




Via the Torqbyte WMI controller:




A couple months ago we did some dyno testing, but the ambient conditions were just beyond the pale. Over 100F in the dyno bay. That was no way to fairly judge these turbos. So we went back again after fall weather set in. And with conditions at parity here are the horsepower levels between stock and the Stage 1 designs:



At least 30 wheel horsepower difference. And that's using the industry standard SAE correction. But where are the torque values, you ask? Well, the DynoJet's RPM pickup was on the fritz so we are left with having to calculate those values manually. Here they are:




OK, so my Franken-Sense is tingling to tell me that some of you might question "only" 450whp on Stage1 turbos. And perhaps the ambitious ~20 of timing advance is to blame. But I have an answer for that. Here is a comparison of timing curves we tried:




Considerable variation, eh? But the rest of the variables were tightly controlled:




And the result of this more-conventional timing curve?




Nearly 20whp of power lost. Or, looking through the glass another way, nearly 20whp gained by raising timing to where it should be.

Irregardless of the dyno numbers, I feel the power levels the car is making would make a lot of people very happy. The issue here is that it takes E85 fuel and water methanol injection to get there. At least on these turbos. But for 450whp to be a good benchmark for our own products, it's got to be attainable with conventional fueling. So that's our goal: match those dyno numbers on plain-jane pump gas. And also match this very tidy RPM sweep the Stage 1 turbos achieved.




Three seconds flat from 4200 to 6500. That's a good standard to work from. And I'd encourage anyone reading this thread to use that value as their own yardstick. Find a flat stretch of road and try it for yourself. You might be surprised to see how you stack up.

Thanks

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo


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Default 11-26-2016, 08:21 AM

Regarding "irregardless"...

IR = prefix meaning "not" or "the opposite of" less = suffix meaning "without"....Therefore Irregardless translates to "The opposite of or not without regard" which means "I regard this" So if you are going to say that it is a word, then it is still accurate to say that it is used INCORRECTLY at the very least.


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boost junkie boost junkie is offline
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Default 11-28-2016, 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indo Rider
Regarding "irregardless"...

IR = prefix meaning "not" or "the opposite of" less = suffix meaning "without"....Therefore Irregardless translates to "The opposite of or not without regard" which means "I regard this" So if you are going to say that it is a word, then it is still accurate to say that it is used INCORRECTLY at the very least.
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Default First test results with the FrankenTurbo F21Bi turbos - 11-30-2016, 01:14 AM



I'm thinking the crowd's warmed up enough for me to start talking about our own turbos. The stock units and those "Stage 1" facsimiles served their purposes. Time to take what I've learned and move on to something better.

I figured a good jumping off point for testing was a direct comparison to the boost curve of the turbos we took off the car. For starters, here's a picture of the two types:




And after a bit of tinkering with the JB4's boost management settings I was able to dial in a boost curve that closely emulated that of the "Stage1" turbos.




Here is a comparison of the boost duties between turbos:




Right off the bat we can see the F21s are going to offer a lot more than any Stage1 design could. The boost duty they require for equivalent boost is dramatically lowered. And that is while other significant variables are strictly controlled:




So with boost, ignition advance, intake temperatures & fuel mixtures at parity, what's changed? Well, the high pressure fuel pump is showing added strain:




The fuel pump is reflecting what we saw in the boost map: these turbos spool more quickly. With that spool comes more airflow, and the fuel pump is struggling to cover it. You see, the ultimate litmus test of this design -- or any of our products -- is spool. Responsiveness. And the F21Bis are doing just fine. But how efficiently are they handling the exhaust gases? Are these turbos able to produce that boost with less wear-and-tear on their internal parts? The back-pressures seen by the turbine rotor will give us some insight. Here is that comparison:




The FrankenTurbo F21Bi turbos can produce the same boost to the intake as "Stage 1" designs while delivering a huge improvement in exhaust back-pressures. What that means is less stress on the turbos and a more efficient engine. So that confirms another opinion I've had for some time: clipping stock rotors is a botch. It's a sucky shortcut. Clipping under-specced rotors doesn't perform miracles. It just enhances their weaknesses. Listless spool. Indifferent top-end performance.

And hey, let's have a look at performance. As posted earlier in the thread, with those generic "Stage1-like-objects" the test car came in at a smart 3.00 seconds in our 4200-6500rpm sweep. What's it doing now?




That's faster. And here's another way of looking at it: the time-to-speed through the entire rev range.




This is a good start. The test data show the F21Bi turbos clearly outmatch any "Stage1" design. They deliver equivalent boost at lower boost duty, lower backpressures and higher engine efficiency.

...and they have more robust internals. And they are wholly new parts. And they carry a two-year warranty.

Thanks

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo



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Default Adjusting the water methanol system - 12-01-2016, 06:16 PM

That precipitous drop in the high pressure fuel circuit called for a re-working of the WMI configuration. So I fitted a #10 Devil's Own nozzle in the downstream intercooler end-tank location. This along with the 450cc/minute of combined flow from the two post-throttle body nozzles takes the total flow capacity up to above 1200cc/min. 200cc per cylinder. That's a good deal of fluid.

Taking another data log with the re-configured WMI, the boost curves were at parity:



But with the increased WMI capacity along with some adjustments to the map in the Torqbyte controller, the amperage loads are now quite different:




The flow starts earlier and the amperage values are up. How does this impact the engine's fueling system?




The high-pressure fuel circuit values look much safer. And fuel trims are also skewing more into the subtractive end of things.




So good results from the WMI adjustments. And as for the other data, well here are the back pressures pre-turbos compared to some from the Stage 1 like objects.

Again -- these are comparisons to the previous turbos. F21Bi versus "Stage1"




The most salient data point here is the superior airflows through the engine -- even at points where the intake manifold pressure (boost) was lower. The combination of a bespoke turbine/manifold casting and superior MixedFlow turbine rotor is paying unmistakable dividends.

But with that added airflow, we've run into an interesting trouble-spot: the DME is reporting misfires at the very top of the rev range. I'll discuss the potential causes for that -- and the solution we went with -- next.



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nyt nyt is offline
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Default 12-02-2016, 04:10 PM

perhaps it's because you've pushed your timing way beyond safe.


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Default Misfire at 6500rpms - 12-04-2016, 07:33 PM

Here's the thing about troubleshooting these modern, sophisticated cars: there's rarely one straightforward answer to puzzling behavior. So with the new turbos installed, why was the DME suddenly triggering a CEL for misfires? Even when the boost and all other tuning settings were the same? Well, even with so many variables the same, the car was nevertheless taking in more air and fuel. And it was a lot faster, so there was definitely a change. And if the car was faster & felt strong, why the CEL after finishing each pull?

And what do you do when the obvious suspects -- bad fuel mixture, too much WMI, bad injector(s), bad/wrong spark plugs -- all get tested/checked/changed? In my case, you start questioning whether a misfire is actually occurring. And it's pretty easy to examine the data logs to test that. Firstly, if the engine were misfiring, the O2 sensors would register that unburnt oxygen in the exhaust stream. You'd see a huge spike like this one:




Lambda values spiking to way over stoichiometric are a dead giveaway for an unburnt fuel/air charge. So in the case of bad injectors, like we had in the above example, Lambda was shot to hell when they acted up. But here's a look at the Lambdas in a run where misfiring was reported.




So where's the Lambda spike? Well, then we looked at the data from our high-speed Torqbyte data logger, and it sure did seem like there was some kind of latency there. The rpms bump up right at that 6500-ish rpms.




Ok. So there's an irregularity in the rpms, which is triggering the DME's misfire protection. But the Lambdas don't show one. Faced with a puzzle, I did what just about everyone does these days: I Googled it. And I came across this interesting thread:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=780764

And here is another, pointing to the same possible cause: a stock, dual mass flywheel.

Our test car still has the 535is clutch mated to a stock flywheel. And the data logs strongly rule out an actual misfire. So I arrived at the conclusion this was a case of "ghost misfire" and simply turned off misfire detection in the TunerPro software map. With that modified file loaded, the DME no longer frets about a flywheel-generated anomaly, and the logs continue to confirm the engine is running smoothly:




I'm going to reiterate that I did this exploration only after eliminating the more common causes of misfires. The fuel injectors are new, the WMI system turned off, the coil packs were replaced, new NGK 5992 plugs gapped down to .020 also went in. None changed the misfire warning. But the software workaround works flawlessly.

And so it's time! Let's turn up the juice! And see what shakes loose.

Thanks

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo


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Default 12-05-2016, 07:28 AM

A rod is going to be what shakes loose with those timing numbers. Jesus Christ.
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Default 12-05-2016, 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfiftyfore
A rod is going to be what shakes loose with those timing numbers. Jesus Christ.
shhhh.

I'm just glad he fixed all of our high rpm misfires!


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Default Misfire Detection Settings in TunerPro - 12-08-2016, 02:26 AM

I didn't make somthing clear enough in my previous post: the Misfire Detection Defeat function available in the TunerPro mapping can be tailored to a specific RPM range. So to "turn off" detection at the troublesome ~6500rpm spot, we don't have to turn it off completely. Here's a look at the setting I found successful for this particular fault.



Detection is defeated above 6000rpms. But for all speeds below that, it works as designed.


Thx


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Default 12-08-2016, 02:45 PM

So, you turned misfire detection off above 6000rpm with 20deg timing advancement?

Ground breaking? Or crank breaking?


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Default 12-08-2016, 06:17 PM

The joke of all of this is if he just made a product and worked with a known tuner and produced good results he would have sales. Doug is not making himself look good posting this stuff.


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Default working without a net (water methanol turned off) - 12-08-2016, 06:58 PM

The high pressure fuel circuit values in early testing show the car's current fuel system is leaning really heavily on the water methanol system. To find out how much, and to have a window into the potential risks of a WMI system failure, we switched the system off. Then we adjusted downwards the boost commands through the vulnerable RPMs midrange. Then we crossed our fingers and logged.

The car made a good, strong pull. Here's the RPM sweep score:



But what was going on behind the scenes? Well, even with boost kept at ~20psi in the midrange, the high pressure fuel pump is falling on its face.




So 20psi of midrange boost on these turbos is really really dodgy without a solid source of supplemental fuel. Granted, the JB4 piggyback didn't kick the car into Map4 safety mode, but it's a close call.

Even the upgraded in-tank fuel pump is crying for mercy:




But with the 1200+cc of WMI deleted from the charged air, this is our first insight into the F21s' peak boost capacity. Just air. And they're doing about 21psi at redline. That's a touch lower than I'd anticipated on this 1.5L x 2 displacement, but that is while running 20 of timing. When we drop that ignition advance down to more conventional levels we'll have to see if the boost levels change.

Considering the risk exposure of running more than 20psi through the rev mid-range, I am going to peg that as the safe maximum on this fueling system. I'll work from that limitation even with the WMI restored.

Thx



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ShocknAwe ShocknAwe is offline
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Default 12-08-2016, 07:07 PM

Time to set the timing to real world levels.


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Default 12-09-2016, 10:16 AM

I'm liking what I'm seeing Doug. Pretty excited for RWHP numbers.


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JuniorB JuniorB is offline
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Thumbs up 12-10-2016, 05:57 AM

These could be a lot better turbo than oem replacements,or rebuilds, we know what there running,and already been proven.
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Default 12-10-2016, 02:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorB
These could be a lot better turbo than oem replacements,or rebuilds, we know what there running,and already been proven.
Absolutely. However, I'd like to see logs and dyno on a tune with proper timing, on various E85 mixtures and straight 93 pump. All in good time I suppose. Keep holding my breath that Doug will stop playing around with 20 degree timing so we can see what they are actually doing.


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Default 12-10-2016, 02:38 PM

I've read the thread and hear of conflicting info,but didn't he already s y show what there capabilities are? Is rather run the e85 than method,ill take it as a good base line
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