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gmore gmore is offline
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Default E85 or 50/50 Meth for DD w/DCT - 09-09-2017, 10:00 AM

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum but as it pertains to either E85(at pump/no mix) or 50/50 Meth(no interest in higher mix) for a sub-500hp DD w/DCT, my hours of research has me left with some questions and torn between 2 options listed below.

Quick history: Have taken a built/tuned Forester XT to it's limits(reliable DD) w/E85 that I love everything about, except for gas mileage. Had been looking for a N54 335xi to take to the 'next level' but transfer-case questions/limitations lead me to buying a clean/stock '11 335is 80K miles w/DCT. I may someday make it a track monster but for now, want a reliable/convenient DD to have fun with and hone my street rwd skills with something this powerful 1st.

Main Goals: A decent increase in power for street fun with focus on long-term reliability and convenience. I'm willing to put the time/expense in up front but want simple operation/maintenance going forward(no mixing/long-term logging/etc). I plan on:DCT fluid change;walnut blast; BMS JB4/CP/OCC; RB PCV; and down-pipe(brand yet determined); maybe DCI and larger FMIC(after results of these mods) plus 1 of the following:

1: E85 set-up with Stage 2 lpfp and BEF
*Pluses: Cleaner lpfp install with with no add'l hoses,controller or tank in the trunk; simple pump fill and nothing else
*Minuses: Worse gas mileage; 'limited' to about 430whp w/o TBI or PI; it appears a BEF needed for DCT and 'maybe' a bit more complex a set-up(more monitoring/custom tune?); far less time/experience/threads/results with pure E85 on N54 especially w/o TBI or PI - at least that I can find.
*Specific Question: Any BEF recommended for this specific set-up and/or custom tune recommended/needed?; any need for larger injectors under 430hp?; other than expense, any downside to going with stg3 lphp?(if I upgrade later would go PI and might bite the bullet now)

2: BMS Meth Inj.w FSB and single cm10(I think) nozzle
*Pluses: Better gas mileage; more potential power w/o add'l mods; possibly larger cooling effect and some(mild) valve cleaning(delayed walnut blasting); a lot more history/info on n54 with this platform
*Minuses: More cumbersome install(for me); less trunk space; add'l fluid to add/monitor
*Specific questions: is BEF recommended(DCT in mind); is cm10 fine for 50/50 and approx 450hp?

Gos w/o saying but pls lmk if I missed something or am plain wrong.

My main questions: Which set-up is likely to be less problematic and smoother(best word that comes to mind) especially w/DCT?

Thanks
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Default 09-10-2017, 09:30 AM

Whether or not you want to rely on E85 really comes down to how accessible it is for you. If you can easily get it I'd say go for it. Load up the E85 BEF, add a Stage1 or Stage2 low pressure fuel pump, run a 40% mix, and use map5 or map7. You'll make good power. And on the E85 BEF if you get stuck on pump you can just kick back to map1 without issue.

Now if you don't have regular E85 access WMI is a great choice, use the RACE BEF, no low pressure upgrade needed, and then you'll use map3 on a 50 additive on 93. Boost juice 50/50 mix is fine as is a single CM10. But if your chargepipe has two bungs dual CM7 might be better for not much more cost/effort.

What makes it really smooth is the BEF which boosts torque to the trans to ensure no slippage at higher power levels.


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Default 09-10-2017, 09:45 AM

Question for those using methanol. How much is generally used over time with daily spirited driving? I see how much boost juice costs but don't have a reference for the actual impact to the wallet in the course of a month, where cost of E85 is easier to factor for me.


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as3.0cl as3.0cl is offline
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Default 09-10-2017, 10:29 AM

I went with Meth, Power delivery is smooth. Currently have the Race BEF loaded. On the stock TMAP my adder is at 65 with the stock turbo's. I don't have consistent timing drops and my avg ignition ranges from .5 to 1.5. Mostly depends if I only hit boost for a short time range in a gear i will see the avg rise.

I put 2 gallons in the tank of a 70/30 meth/water. I maybe have used a gallon in two months and most of that is when I was testing out the system.

Meth only turns on about 8psi, so normal driving around town and highway cruising you will not be using meth. It only kicks on when you get on it.

I spent $45 on pure 100% M1, I was there when it was pumped out of the barrel. Meth will last a while.


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Default 09-10-2017, 02:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Whether or not you want to rely on E85 really comes down to how accessible it is for you. If you can easily get it I'd say go for it. Load up the E85 BEF, add a Stage1 or Stage2 low pressure fuel pump, run a 40% mix, and use map5 or map7. You'll make good power. And on the E85 BEF if you get stuck on pump you can just kick back to map1 without issue.

Now if you don't have regular E85 access WMI is a great choice, use the RACE BEF, no low pressure upgrade needed, and then you'll use map3 on a 50 additive on 93. Boost juice 50/50 mix is fine as is a single CM10. But if your chargepipe has two bungs dual CM7 might be better for not much more cost/effort.

What makes it really smooth is the BEF which boosts torque to the trans to ensure no slippage at higher power levels.
Thanks for the reply and great info Terry but just to clarify a couple of things. For E85(easy access for me and consistent on my FXT) is a '40% mix' just to start until ecu/jb4 learns and then slowly ease into 'full E85' (which I've read requires a stg2 lpfp for n54) or are you recommending only a mix (ie:E30) and not straight E85 pump?
For WMI I would be using your CP so will research running 2 nozzles. Would also use 93 and assume '50 additive' means 50/50 meth...correct?
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Default 09-10-2017, 02:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by as3.0cl
I went with Meth, Power delivery is smooth. Currently have the Race BEF loaded. On the stock TMAP my adder is at 65 with the stock turbo's. I don't have consistent timing drops and my avg ignition ranges from .5 to 1.5. Mostly depends if I only hit boost for a short time range in a gear i will see the avg rise.

I put 2 gallons in the tank of a 70/30 meth/water. I maybe have used a gallon in two months and most of that is when I was testing out the system.

Meth only turns on about 8psi, so normal driving around town and highway cruising you will not be using meth. It only kicks on when you get on it.

I spent $45 on pure 100% M1, I was there when it was pumped out of the barrel. Meth will last a while.
Thx for this info!
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Default 09-10-2017, 03:55 PM

From my understanding you start at E40 and slowly increase (E45, E50,....) until you find the limit of the HPFP. (Usually E60)

Without port injection(or another option for suplimental fuel) you wont be able to run straight E85.
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Default 09-10-2017, 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135iam
From my understanding you start at E40 and slowly increase (E45, E50,....) until you find the limit of the HPFP. (Usually E60)

Without port injection(or another option for suplimental fuel) you wont be able to run straight E85.
Hmm,
I've gotten most of my Ethanol requirements/info from from this Fuel-It fuel systems thread...
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28642
and as I understand it (and I certainly may be getting it wrong), stg2 lpfp is the only thing needed to run pump E85. The biggest issue is a limit of about 430whp stock w/o IP or TBI add (greater results available on E30/40/etc.)
Given that most look to ethanol primarily for power gains(and big ones at that), this is probably why I'm coming up blank for 'pure' E85 stock +stg2 lpfp info. I'd sacrifice some gains for straight E85 pump convenience(no mixing), the added cooling(and cleaning) benefit of Ethanol while setting up a potential foundation for future bigger gains, if I can do this reliably especially compared to a fairly proven track record w/WMI.

All of this of course is moot if you're right and E85(no diluting) is not possible with just an lpfp upgrade and nothing else?

Last edited by gmore; 09-10-2017 at 05:15 PM..
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135iam 135iam is offline
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Default 09-10-2017, 07:38 PM

Humm, hopefully Terry or Steve will chime in.

If I am reading fuel-its site correct, to to run straight e85 without supplemental fueling (PI or WMI) you will need to limit power to 430 whp (limit boost thru tuning I assume)
If you run e30-e40 you will make more power (without adding PI or WMI).

I am following along as I would love to run straight e85 without spending $1500-$2000 on port injection. I am installing RB Next Gen + turbos in the next two weeks that make 490-525 whp on 93 with supporting mods, and would push around 600 with e85 and required fueling.
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xQx xQx is online now
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Default 09-11-2017, 04:35 PM

E85 user here.

If you've got an e85 pump handy, do that first. It's cheap (DIY Stage 2+ Bucketless costs a lot less and is much simpler than meth) & easy power.

You don't find many threads because it just works. Head over to the 'look at my log' section and you'll see many, many e85 mix users.

You want the BMS E85 Backend Flash, a JB4 and a LPFP upgrade.

I run E50 (ie. 6 litres of E85 for every 5 litres of gas) on map 5 or map 7. Only thing to note is with E30 & above you'll be filling up more often.

I've not tried running Pure E85, since my gas station has the E85 and 98RON fuel on the same pump, so i just fill the E85 part, hang up the bowser then finish the fill with 98RON. It's dead easy.

I'd love to be running meth, fuel economy is better, you're supplementing your stock fuel supply, not driving out of your way every fill, it lowers your IAT and cleans your inlet valves. But the initial cost and install is far more than just a LPFP upgrade.

Remember - for even better performance you can run both; so it's not like you have to choose one or the other.
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as3.0cl as3.0cl is offline
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Default 09-12-2017, 04:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmore
Thanks for the reply and great info Terry but just to clarify a couple of things. For E85(easy access for me and consistent on my FXT) is a '40% mix' just to start until ecu/jb4 learns and then slowly ease into 'full E85' (which I've read requires a stg2 lpfp for n54) or are you recommending only a mix (ie:E30) and not straight E85 pump?
For WMI I would be using your CP so will research running 2 nozzles. Would also use 93 and assume '50 additive' means 50/50 meth...correct?
50 add is just the additive boost number above stock map 1.

See this thread. Your additive will be limited to the meth mix you run and other factors. So set additive to 50 and do a 3rd gear pull, Post it up and see if everything looks good. Then if everything is good keep increasing the additive for a higher and higher boost curve.

See this thread http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22272.

Installation of Meth was not to hard, routing the cable through the cabin was only hard because it always wanted to coil back up. Took a few ours to get it done and laid out.

I went Meth for more power, cooling, and blowing some fluid over the intake valves to wash them down. Plus there is one e85 station about 20 miles from me, so with the combined reduced fuel mileage and having to travel to fill up would not be cost effective.


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Last edited by as3.0cl; 09-12-2017 at 05:02 AM..
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Default 09-12-2017, 05:53 AM

I live in the UK where we don't have E85 so WMI was my only option. It's a pretty great system. Very high cooling and octane boost ability and it's all on demand. When I spend 90% of my time going from A to B at less than full throttle it just zips along on pump fuel and then when I need the octane etc it injects and off you go.

You probably spray 0.17 gallons per minute with a pair of CM5s. Which means on a 2.5 gallon tank. You have 2.5/0.17 = 14.7 minutes worth of wide open throttle time before needing a refill. So in reality it can be weeks or more than a month between fills of the meth tank. Plus that tank can be 20 to 50% filled with water. (by weight, not volume. Water is heavier than methanol)


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gmore gmore is offline
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Default 09-12-2017, 06:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx
E85 user here.

If you've got an e85 pump handy, do that first. It's cheap (DIY Stage 2+ Bucketless costs a lot less and is much simpler than meth) & easy power.

You don't find many threads because it just works. Head over to the 'look at my log' section and you'll see many, many e85 mix users.

You want the BMS E85 Backend Flash, a JB4 and a LPFP upgrade.

I run E50 (ie. 6 litres of E85 for every 5 litres of gas) on map 5 or map 7. Only thing to note is with E30 & above you'll be filling up more often.

I've not tried running Pure E85, since my gas station has the E85 and 98RON fuel on the same pump, so i just fill the E85 part, hang up the bowser then finish the fill with 98RON. It's dead easy.

I'd love to be running meth, fuel economy is better, you're supplementing your stock fuel supply, not driving out of your way every fill, it lowers your IAT and cleans your inlet valves. But the initial cost and install is far more than just a LPFP upgrade.

Remember - for even better performance you can run both; so it's not like you have to choose one or the other.
Thanks for the response and good info. The flexibility of 93/E85/mix is addition motivation for a stg2 lpfp. If I go Ethanol, I'd probably experiment w/mixes on occasions but would pretty much want to stick with just e85 pump on a regular basis(at least at 1st) - any experience here greatly appreciated especially if with DCT.

FWIW, If by 'run both' you meant E85 and WMI, I'm aware many do this on diluted Ethanol mixes, but my understanding (from an early E85 Fuel-It thread) is 'pure' E85(not diluted) and WMI was not recommended? I'm sure it's been discussed since then and no need to expand on it here - just thought a mild PSA from what limited info I've gathered.
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Default 09-12-2017, 06:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWSAWS
I live in the UK where we don't have E85 so WMI was my only option. It's a pretty great system. Very high cooling and octane boost ability and it's all on demand. When I spend 90% of my time going from A to B at less than full throttle it just zips along on pump fuel and then when I need the octane etc it injects and off you go.

You probably spray 0.17 gallons per minute with a pair of CM5s. Which means on a 2.5 gallon tank. You have 2.5/0.17 = 14.7 minutes worth of wide open throttle time before needing a refill. So in reality it can be weeks or more than a month between fills of the meth tank. Plus that tank can be 20 to 50% filled with water. (by weight, not volume. Water is heavier than methanol)

How do you find the meth consumption now you run port meth injection?

I also live in the uk and I am looking to upgrade from my TBI to PI or go down the port meth route since we don't have e85 at the pump. Also the fuel range is limiting running e40/e50 which can be annoying when you go out for a blast.


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gmore gmore is offline
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Default 09-12-2017, 06:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by as3.0cl
50 add is just the additive boost number above stock map 1.

See this thread. Your additive will be limited to the meth mix you run and other factors. So set additive to 50 and do a 3rd gear pull, Post it up and see if everything looks good. Then if everything is good keep increasing the additive for a higher and higher boost curve.

See this thread http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22272.

Installation of Meth was not to hard, routing the cable through the cabin was only hard because it always wanted to coil back up. Took a few ours to get it done and laid out.

I went Meth for more power, cooling, and blowing some fluid over the intake valves to wash them down. Plus there is one e85 station about 20 miles from me, so with the combined reduced fuel mileage and having to travel to fill up would not be cost effective.
Thanks,
I figured this was the case, but just wanted to make 100% certain it wasn't a reference to some add'l fuel additive - things were more simple on the EJ25 platform and reading too much on all the n54 mix/tune combos has me a bit numb

When shopping for a car, WMI was a forgone conclusion(lots of success/info) - I didn't know that 'pure' E85 might be possible w/o extensive mods.
I thought I'd find a project/beater, but the car I ended up with is exceptionally clean and the stock performance is quite a bit better than I expected (noticeable bump from the stock 335xis I'd tried) so I'm leaning towards a bit cleaner/stock-look install (I'd originally planned on a WW WMI install but would go with a trunk mount now). Only car 'weakness' is some delay off the line - I'm sure WMI/JB4/etc can help but E85 did wonders for my FXT, so am leaning that way - haven't gone thru the link yet, but definitely will.
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Default 09-12-2017, 03:31 PM

The bottom line is straight E85 limits you on power strictly because it takes more fuel than with 93 octane and you are strictly limited by your hpfp. So essentially if you run straight E85 without supporting mods like PI, you'll have to lower boost to compensate for less fuel to the system. The engine needs two things to make more power, fueling and octane. You can get more energy density with 93 compared to ethanol, but you get more octane with ethanol than you do with 93. So for example, if you have 93 octane with a PI system, you'll have more fuel than you'll ever need for the system but will be limited on octane. If you run straight E85 without PI, you'll have plenty of octane but be limited on fuel for the hpfp system. Methanol like ethanol has a lower energy density but is a high octane fuel. That's why guys who don't have easy access to E85 are using methanol as an alternative fuel to provide the octane needed to make power.


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Default 09-12-2017, 03:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmore
Thanks for the response and good info. The flexibility of 93/E85/mix is addition motivation for a stg2 lpfp. If I go Ethanol, I'd probably experiment w/mixes on occasions but would pretty much want to stick with just e85 pump on a regular basis(at least at 1st) - any experience here greatly appreciated especially if with DCT.

FWIW, If by 'run both' you meant E85 and WMI, I'm aware many do this on diluted Ethanol mixes, but my understanding (from an early E85 Fuel-It thread) is 'pure' E85(not diluted) and WMI was not recommended? I'm sure it's been discussed since then and no need to expand on it here - just thought a mild PSA from what limited info I've gathered.
E85 and meth are not recommended together strictly because it complicates tuning. If you are to run meth with straight E85, it's recommended only to run a 5cm nozzle and you'll use the WMI system primarily for cooling purposes even though ethanol has cooling properties.


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Default 09-12-2017, 03:59 PM

How much methanol/nozzle size is needed to just cool IAT and combustion temps? 5cm? 7cm?

Thanks to all providing good answers here!


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as3.0cl as3.0cl is offline
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Default 09-12-2017, 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe
How much methanol/nozzle size is needed to just cool IAT and combustion temps? 5cm? 7cm?

Thanks to all providing good answers here!
n54 can go with a single cm10 or dual cm5

i would check the website

http://www.burgertuning.com/meth.html

I have maybe used a gallon of a 70/30 mix, over two months. I do have a second vehicle but I am hard on my car when I do drive it.

Here for flow rates. i think the CM pump is at 200psi, but one of the guys from BMS can verify

https://www.coolingmist.com/


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gmore gmore is offline
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Default 09-12-2017, 06:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by N54QC
The bottom line is straight E85 limits you on power strictly because it takes more fuel than with 93 octane and you are strictly limited by your hpfp. So essentially if you run straight E85 without supporting mods like PI, you'll have to lower boost to compensate for less fuel to the system. The engine needs two things to make more power, fueling and octane. You can get more energy density with 93 compared to ethanol, but you get more octane with ethanol than you do with 93. So for example, if you have 93 octane with a PI system, you'll have more fuel than you'll ever need for the system but will be limited on octane. If you run straight E85 without PI, you'll have plenty of octane but be limited on fuel for the hpfp system. Methanol like ethanol has a lower energy density but is a high octane fuel. That's why guys who don't have easy access to E85 are using methanol as an alternative fuel to provide the octane needed to make power.
Thanks for this and I do understand.

I also understand that 'straight' E85 for less power seems irrational/noobish but my experience w/E85 at different pumps often triggering CELs on my FXT, and not knowing how hard I want to push the car(primarily the DCT - no real concerns w/the engine) has me wanting to stay very consistent w/fuel and a bit conservative to start (add the convenience and cooling).

I often put too much info on my posts to narrow the discussion with my main message/question often lost so...

with bolt-ons/mods listed in 1st post...

*E85 pump(no mix) w/BEF and stg2 lpfp

vs

*93 with 50/50 meth (am aware of greater power and valve cleaning potential)

which is more reliable?

if it's meth, is a BEF recommended?

If it's a wash(which I'm gathering from the responses), I will be going E85 w/'blending' a strong near term possibility and a distant eye on IP/Injectors/etc depending on results.

Thanks to all above - has been a big help

Last edited by gmore; 09-12-2017 at 07:27 PM..
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N54QC N54QC is offline
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Default 09-12-2017, 07:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmore
Thanks for this and I do understand.

I also understand that 'straight' E85 for less power seems irrational/noobish but my experience w/E85 at different pumps often triggering CELs on my FXT, and not knowing how hard I want to push the car(primarily the DCT - no real concerns w/the engine) has me wanting to stay very consistent w/fuel and a bit conservative to start (add the convenience).

I often put too much info on my posts to narrow the discussion with my main message/question often lost so...

with bolt-ons/mods listed in 1st post...

*E85 pump(no mix) w/BEF and stg2 lpfp

vs

*93 with 50/50 meth (am aware of greater power and valve cleaning potential)

which is more reliable?

if it's meth, is a BEF recommended?

If it's a wash(which I'm gathering from the responses), I will be going E85 w/'blending' a strong near term possibility and a distant eye on IP/Injectors/etc depending on results.

Thanks to all above - has been a big help
I would say if you have access to E85, just get a lpfp upgrade and do a mix on fuel. Regardless whether you go with E85 or meth, you should have a BEF.


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Terry @ BMS Terry @ BMS is offline
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Default 09-12-2017, 08:07 PM

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Originally Posted by 135iam
Humm, hopefully Terry or Steve will chime in.

If I am reading fuel-its site correct, to to run straight e85 without supplemental fueling (PI or WMI) you will need to limit power to 430 whp (limit boost thru tuning I assume)
If you run e30-e40 you will make more power (without adding PI or WMI).

I am following along as I would love to run straight e85 without spending $1500-$2000 on port injection. I am installing RB Next Gen + turbos in the next two weeks that make 490-525 whp on 93 with supporting mods, and would push around 600 with e85 and required fueling.
Straight E85 requires port injection. You can also continue to use WMI with port injection, we've been slowly improving overall integration to make it safe and seamless. But how you set it up exactly depends on the specifics of what E85 mix you'll be running most often.

Generally speaking WMI is a cheap and easy solution up to around 600whp, even on E50 mixtures.


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N54QC N54QC is offline
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Default 09-12-2017, 08:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Straight E85 requires port injection. You can also continue to use WMI with port injection, we've been slowly improving overall integration to make it safe and seamless. But how you set it up exactly depends on the specifics of what E85 mix you'll be running most often.

Generally speaking WMI is a cheap and easy solution up to around 600whp, even on E50 mixtures.
Hey Terry, Just got a PI kit from Steve and was wondering if there is a way to monitor both PI and meth just using the JB4 app or do I have to use Bluetooth for ethanol content while using JB4 app for meth? Sorry for the thread hi-jack.


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gmore gmore is offline
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Default 09-13-2017, 06:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Straight E85 requires port injection.
OK, this is news to me - thanks

With JB4 and E85 BEF...

What is max Ethanol mix(E30/E60/etc?) w/o complications w/just stg2 lpfp(no PI/TBI)?

Add PI,stg2/3 lpfp and PICM(I assume highly recommended) on as conservative/reliable a straight E85 set-up possible - any add'l recommended adds? If injectors, size appreciated.
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135iam 135iam is offline
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Default 09-13-2017, 06:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS
Straight E85 requires port injection. You can also continue to use WMI with port injection, we've been slowly improving overall integration to make it safe and seamless. But how you set it up exactly depends on the specifics of what E85 mix you'll be running most often.

Generally speaking WMI is a cheap and easy solution up to around 600whp, even on E50 mixtures.
Thanks Terry!

And thanks gmore for starting this thread! It has helped clarify a few things for me and now I know which way I am leaning as far as fueling my n54 build. I have read countless forum posts on fueling and I finally feel like I am getting it.

like gmore, I don't really want to mix fuel and would rather run straight E85 or straight 93.

I am leaning towards 93 octane, a 2 nozzle WMI setup, and Trebila BEF when I install RB next gen plus turbos in the next couple weeks.
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