N54Tech.com - Your Source for International Turbo BMW Racing Discussion
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phyxius1 phyxius1 is offline
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Default 02-14-2016, 07:29 AM

Another engineer here... haha.

You could do yourself and the community a great service if you made some more in depth pressure and temperature measurements.

I would suggest vacuum measurements before the turbos with the stock air box That will give you a good idea of the exact pressure ratio the compressor is running in any given situation and whether the intake mod really increased air flow potential for the stock turbo. From there you have a really good idea of where you are on the compressor map, and what direction to go from there to get to an optimized compressor for your new turbo.

If you were to repeat those measurements with whatever aftermarket intake setup you will install, it would also help us understand what intake mods are really worthwhile. I'm not sure if the car has a pre-turbo IAT, but that would be useful information as well.

You could take it a step further and install a pressure sensor in the exhaust manifolds. That, with your downstream exhaust pressure and temp would give you similar information for the turbine wheel. You could also see what effect change in intake efficiency has on the turbine/exhaust behavior. I suspect it would be noticeable. With increased compressor/intake efficiency, the turbo should run at a lower rpm for the same boost levels. That could affect your decision on the turbine wheel and waste gate capabilities.

Of course you could do most of that wheel selection bit trial-and-error, but where's the fun in that?
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Default 02-14-2016, 06:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyxius1
Another engineer here... haha.

You could do yourself and the community a great service if you made some more in depth pressure and temperature measurements.

I would suggest vacuum measurements before the turbos with the stock air box That will give you a good idea of the exact pressure ratio the compressor is running in any given situation and whether the intake mod really increased air flow potential for the stock turbo. From there you have a really good idea of where you are on the compressor map, and what direction to go from there to get to an optimized compressor for your new turbo.

If you were to repeat those measurements with whatever aftermarket intake setup you will install, it would also help us understand what intake mods are really worthwhile. I'm not sure if the car has a pre-turbo IAT, but that would be useful information as well.

You could take it a step further and install a pressure sensor in the exhaust manifolds. That, with your downstream exhaust pressure and temp would give you similar information for the turbine wheel. You could also see what effect change in intake efficiency has on the turbine/exhaust behavior. I suspect it would be noticeable. With increased compressor/intake efficiency, the turbo should run at a lower rpm for the same boost levels. That could affect your decision on the turbine wheel and waste gate capabilities.

Of course you could do most of that wheel selection bit trial-and-error, but where's the fun in that?
A lot of good suggestions. I myself have been interested in knowing the degree of vacuum at the turbocharger compressors. It could provide a good insight into the "sucking through a straw" dynamic we all assume happens on the stock inlets. And considering we just got flow test results back for our own prototype silicone inlets, such data from the car would complement those results.

As for measurements at the turbine, we'll cover all that. EGTs and back-pressures are mandatory data.

Right now, though, I've run into a roadblock with the MHD flasher.






It will not communicate with the car. I've tried JB4 maps 0 and 4. Tried it with the car running and not. I've tried every trick I've learned from dealing with the stubborn ECUs on VW/Audis. The car is a 2008+ series. Will a K+DCAN cable not work on the later DME cars?


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phyxius1 phyxius1 is offline
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Default 02-14-2016, 07:19 PM

I have a 2008 135i and my K+DCAN cable works fine.
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dlp3719 dlp3719 is offline
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Default 02-14-2016, 07:20 PM

Map 0 the right answer. Key in. Press start with foot off the brake. Dash lights up but car does not start.

How much charge is that battery charger giving it? You do need good voltage.


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Tuppidsay Tuppidsay is offline
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Default 02-14-2016, 10:56 PM

Depending on what Dcan cable you got. Some come out of the package programed to K-Can and you got to switch it over to D-can with a laptop and a DOS program. If it's the $20-$40 ebay one, thats almost certainly your problem


2008 BMW 535i SPORT SAT - VVT GC LITE - INS&OUTS - JB4 - RACE BEF - DCI - VRSF EXHAUST - BMS METH DUAL CM7 50/50 - BIG TOM IC - RACEPORT BOV - 3.5 TMAP - BMS CATCH CAN - VTT PCV - MUFFLER DELETE
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Default 02-15-2016, 02:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuppidsay
Depending on what Dcan cable you got. Some come out of the package programed to K-Can and you got to switch it over to D-can with a laptop and a DOS program. If it's the $20-$40 ebay one, thats almost certainly your problem
I'd wondered if there might be a driver issue, and this might be it as well. The cable came with a software disk. I'll look into what that does.

Thx


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Torsion Torsion is offline
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Default 02-15-2016, 06:58 AM

Buy a better cable it will make your life easier... Onestopelectronics is the best one
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Default 02-15-2016, 07:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
I'd wondered if there might be a driver issue, and this might be it as well. The cable came with a software disk. I'll look into what that does.

Thx
If you tried flashing on map 4 you probably bricked the JB4 take the JB4 out and try reflashing. When you get it working the JB4 can be hooked up again and do firmware recovery.
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mike082802 mike082802 is offline
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Default 02-15-2016, 12:21 PM

do you guys plan on making new cast turbos with new exhaust manifolds like you do for the VW2.0t? i mean your prices for those are pretty reasonable. i wouldn't think ours would be much more than double the F23 turbo with manifold. do you have any ideas? i think soon enough all turbo makers might just ditch the upgraded stock frames since there is so much machine work involved in opening them up and the need for cores which drives the costs up. i mean look, ecs sells your f23 with manifold for 1349$ retail, to me thats a steal. if i didn't get rid of my passat i would have purchased a f23 kit.
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Default 02-15-2016, 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nniftyfour
If you tried flashing on map 4 you probably bricked the JB4 take the JB4 out and try reflashing. When you get it working the JB4 can be hooked up again and do firmware recovery.
I'm sure everything's fine. I can't get the MHD app to interface with the DME at all. Not even to read codes. I've tinkered with the software disk that came with the cable. I see it has software to "switch" the cable between K and DCAN. But the software simply returns an error. This cable is getting binned. I've ordered a proper one from bimmersoftware.com


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Default 02-15-2016, 04:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike082802
do you guys plan on making new cast turbos with new exhaust manifolds like you do for the VW2.0t? i mean your prices for those are pretty reasonable. i wouldn't think ours would be much more than double the F23 turbo with manifold.
That's a really insightful assumption. You can definitely draw some conclusions about our upcoming pricing from the $1299 retail pricing of our F23T. We can offer a custom turbo and manifold profitably at that price per unit. How much sense would it make for us to then price the F23Bi at something like two grand apiece?

We will be leveraging already-developed technology with the F23Bi product. They will share wheels, bearing assemblies -- even the bearing housings themselves -- with our existing products. The compressor housings will be derived from those on our F21M for the MINI Cooper and the F21P for the Peugeot. There's a lot of efficiency in this product development, and it'll be reflected in our pricing.



Last edited by doug@frankenturbo.com; 02-15-2016 at 04:10 PM..
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cmg5461 cmg5461 is offline
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Default 02-15-2016, 07:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
I'm sure everything's fine. I can't get the MHD app to interface with the DME at all. Not even to read codes. I've tinkered with the software disk that came with the cable. I see it has software to "switch" the cable between K and DCAN. But the software simply returns an error. This cable is getting binned. I've ordered a proper one from bimmersoftware.com
Test your OTG cable as well.



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Tuppidsay Tuppidsay is offline
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Default 02-16-2016, 12:15 AM

When you want to run the software to switch the cable to dcan, you have to have the obd2 end plugged into the car. . Learned that one the hard way. +1 for the onestopelectronics cable


2008 BMW 535i SPORT SAT - VVT GC LITE - INS&OUTS - JB4 - RACE BEF - DCI - VRSF EXHAUST - BMS METH DUAL CM7 50/50 - BIG TOM IC - RACEPORT BOV - 3.5 TMAP - BMS CATCH CAN - VTT PCV - MUFFLER DELETE

Last edited by Tuppidsay; 02-16-2016 at 12:15 AM.. Reason: Spelling
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Default 02-16-2016, 01:12 AM

Earlier in the thread I mentioned airflows testing. Given the N54 engine's lack of a mass air meter I'd guess that sounded a little unrealistic to some. But airmass values through the engine are a vital testing metric. So if the car didn't come with an airflow meter, well then we'll just have to put one in.

We have a lot of experience with mass airflow meters. Also known as MAFs, virtually all the VW/Audi cars we support came from the factory with them. And since FrankenTurbo is in the business of moving air, I've made it my business to know these devices really well. And actually they are quite simple to set up "standalone". These VW/Audi sensors operate on a 0-5v gamut, rendering a measurement curve such as this one:




I've chosen this particular MAF assembly because its 60mm inside dimension matches that of the N54 inlets' openings. They too are 60mm, which simplifies this modification. And with a maximum measurement of close to 200 grams/second this should give us the headroom we need while on the stock turbos. For comparison, the VW 1.8T engine this sensor comes from will generate about 170g/s on its stock turbocharger. And that's while feeding a significantly larger displacement than the individual N54 turbochargers do.

We set up the MAF sensor using a simple 0-5v gauge, which will report the values coming back from the sensor.




As you can see, while on the bench the sensor returns a value of 1v, consistent with the scaling graph above. Then, the bone-stock test car became bone stock no longer. We removed the airbox and fit the MAF assembly to the bank #2 turbo's inlet pipe.









The airflows to the MAF sensor are now provided by a pair of BMS open-element filters. This was the most practical way to lay out the intake system for testing. And with the configuration complete, we tested the car on its 16psi boost map. The voltages reported by the gauge were tabulated and converted to mass airflow values.

But then it was time to check on a question that's been on my mind for months: is there an output difference between the two turbos? I've been wondering this ever since we arranged for flow-bench testing of the stock inlets. That testing showed a surprising disparity between the two stock inlets' airflow capacities. Many of you have probably seen the test results -- and the results of subsequent testing of aftermarket ones -- but here they are again:



That's a significant difference. But is there really any way for those results to translate to the engine bay? I was really skeptical. But with the equipment in hand to test, we switched the MAF sensor from the bank #2 inlet to the bank #1 inlet, taking care to lay out the flexible hose and filter so they matched the earlier arrangement.




Here are the findings. Firstly, let's cover off questions of consistency between the runs. We made several passes measuring both banks, then selected the two which had the most similarity for ambient conditions and intake air temperatures. Here are all the data documenting the test conditions:



Virtually identical test conditions. And given that consistency I fully expected to see the airflow values for the two banks to "spoon" together just as cozily. Well, I was wrong. Have a look:




Incredulous, I decided to check the airflow output of that bank #1 turbo when the engine and IATs were much hotter. Even then, it is outworking the rear, bank #2 turbo for much of the rev range.




So the flow-bench testing revealed a design irregularity that actually impacts the turbochargers. And it does so at pretty modest boost levels. Given this data, I consider it a design necessity to have well-balanced intake assemblies. Clearly the troubling imbalance at 16psi would only worsen at higher boost levels.

Thx



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Default 02-16-2016, 05:36 AM

Cool to see you gather all this data and documenting it for the public!


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Default 02-16-2016, 07:27 AM

Seriously can't wait until you develop some turbo options, Doug. Just take my money now.
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Default 02-16-2016, 08:14 AM

Wow some really interesting data there with the inlet flow. This just further strengthens the need for upgraded inlet designs to balance both turbos to have sustainable power and reliability. I am thinking that the only true way to "fix" this issue would be to relocate the intake to the passenger side as some vendors offer as it would fair the most balanced setup between the two banks.


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Default 02-16-2016, 12:25 PM

"Flyboy" just forwarded me a better graph of the stock inlets' performance. Here it is.

[IMG]http://www.frankenturbo.com/web-content/image_hosting/N54_stock_inlet_*****_airflow.png[/IMG]

Stock 1 = Bank #1
Stock 2 = Bank #2


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Default 02-16-2016, 05:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
"Flyboy" just forwarded me a better graph of the stock inlets' performance. Here it is.

[IMG]http://www.frankenturbo.com/web-content/image_hosting/N54_stock_inlet_*****_airflow.png[/IMG]

Stock 1 = Bank #1
Stock 2 = Bank #2

This eBay seller here sells the real cable with green chip that works with our cars . I have bought 5 to date ( 1.5 years ) for me and friends and had other friends order there own. They r 19.99$ with free shipping.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/151285603560


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Default 02-17-2016, 01:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuppidsay
When you want to run the software to switch the cable to dcan, you have to have the obd2 end plugged into the car. . Learned that one the hard way. +1 for the onestopelectronics cable
I tried it one last time, with the ignition on, the cable plugged into the OBD, and still got this message from the 1980's application for setting it up.



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Default 02-17-2016, 02:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
I tried it one last time, with the ignition on, the cable plugged into the OBD, and still got this message from the 1980's application for setting it up.
check latency property on your port configuration. and check with manufacture what should it be, probably should be 1 instead of 16 for most chip sets


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Default 02-17-2016, 07:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taron
check latency property on your port configuration. and check with manufacture what should it be, probably should be 1 instead of 16 for most chip sets
This and check in the C/ediabas/bin and ind the OBD.ini or OBD file and make sure your COM ports are the same number. You can either changed it in the config file or change the COM port mapping in the same page you change the latency


2010 AW/BLK 135i VM 6465 Single Turbo, JB4 + MHD, VRSF CP & Tial, Big Tom, Fuel-It PI + Stage 3 + Return + Ethanol Sensor, BMW PE, MFactory LSD & Axles, Spec 3+ & MFactory SMFW, RB External PCV
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snagz snagz is offline
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Default 02-17-2016, 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
I tried it one last time, with the ignition on, the cable plugged into the OBD, and still got this message from the 1980's application for setting it up.

Hey Doug. Go with the bimmersoftware cable. I went through 3 different cables from Amazon, all different sellers. The common fixes are specify COM5, latest FTDI drivers, run K+DCAN utility as administrator in DOS mode, changing serial comm settings, soldering/unsoldering pins 7+8. I forget the specifics but I ran through every trick. The point is some of the cables just don't work no matter what you do (maybe the fake FTDI chips?), so I bought one from bimmersoftware, got it in 2 days, and it was good.
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Default 02-18-2016, 01:07 AM

Time to do an update on the state of modification of the car. As I said in the last post, it received a set of Burger Motorsports' open-element filters. While the airbox was out it seemed a good time to ditch the stock throttle charge pipe with an inexpensive upgrade part from forum friends Extreme Power House.






Being all thumbs with a wrench, I quickly ruined one of the stock diverter valves, forcing replacement of both with a pair of our budget-friendly piston-style units.




I was a bit worried that the conductive aluminum throttle charge pipe might affect the MAP/IAT sensor attached to it. And the logs show a minor touch of increased temps. But performance isn't hurt by such a small hit on IATs, so it's a small price to pay for a proper high performance part.

Logs before/after:




And here are the times to speed for before/after:




For those of you asking, hey, where's the added power? I'd say it's too soon to expect a benefit from these first mods. There is still one big bottleneck that needs to be cleared away first: the exhaust. So the throttle pipe offers plenty of solid capability as modding moves forward. And its integrated WMI nozzle bung is a nice plus. The intakes don't change the sound of the engine much, which I also favor. That's because I'm old. And I was even pleasantly surprised by the unobtrusive sound coming from our metal diverter valves. At this boost level they don't announce themselves in the least bit obnoxiously.

Next, that stock intercooler just had to go. One of our suppliers -- a terrific performance parts workshop in Shanghai -- asked us to try one of their N54 intercoolers. I told them I required whatever unit would install the most simply. So they sent us a 130mm cooler that has a taller section at the very front.






Without a doubt this dimension intercooler has a big advantage. Even for me, installation was easy. And it is a lunker compared to the feather-light OEM unit. As a heat sink, I have to think that mass will move the needle a bit. Here are the data:



Nice! IATs are significantly better. And with that improved air temperature management my butt-dyno-sense was absolutely tingling! Big improvement! No doubt. so let's see how this bad boy's time-to-speed looks now!




Ahhh, crap. Butt dynos are worthless.






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Default 02-18-2016, 05:33 AM

Butt dyno will approve of *********
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