N54Tech.com - Your Source for International Turbo BMW Racing Discussion
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Default 02-08-2016, 02:31 AM

Earlier in the thread I expressed an interest in the JB4's Map 5. This map, with its responsiveness to engine knock and other readings from the car's DME, opens the door to leverage the performance benefits of hardware mods or higher octane fuel. If the sensor readings coming back from the DME look acceptable, the piggyback controller will send higher boost duty signal to the turbos than it does on the maps I've already tested. This is a great functionality, but for the purposes of my testing it assumes a bit more control than I want it to. This isn't to say the sophisticated PID control of Map 5 is somehow lacking. In fact, I think it's fantastic for consumers. It's simple and its safe.

But safe and simple aren't what I'm after. So for that reason I've turned straight to Map 6. In Burger's literature, they describe Map 6 this way:
Map 6: User defined map generally only used for diagnostics or troubleshooting.
Map 6 allows the user to hard-wire boost levels by RPM. At first I thought, well, this is just a crude way to manipulate boost duty. But now that I've explored it I now see it is in fact a terrific way to control actual boost. Not just duty, where you have to hope your values will net the PSI you want. No. Map 6 accepts the boost levels you want and then the JB4 controller handles all the calculations to give you the exact result you want. So don't be misled by the spare-looking interface. This functionality is killer for diagnostics and testing.

Before getting too excited about this, I was mindful of the possible repercussions of taking command of boost levels. Get too aggressive and the risk of engine knock gets very real. But I have activated the JB4's ability to monitor ignition timing corrections over cylinders 2 through 6. So as long as I kept a close eye on those values in the data logs, I was ready to experiment.

Here is a screenshot of the User Adjustment tab in the JB4's computer interface.



I defined boost levels which were approximately 2psi higher than I was seeing in the data logs from Map2. Here is the result, with commanded and actual levels for the before/after:



Almost perfect registration between commanded and requested. But at this increased level, how are the ignition advance values? Here they are, grouped with several other data points.



Intake air temperatures are getting quite high now. The stock intercooler is struggling even in ambient temps around 45˚F. But the ignition advance corrections are trending very similarly to where they were on the lower-boost Map2:



But power-wise, this map does nothing. It's at virtual parity for time to RPMs with Map2.



Are we hitting a wall with the hardware? Are the higher IATs simply negating the raised boost levels? To find out, I doubled down on the boost level settings, raising them again:



Gritting my teeth, I then collected a full third gear data log. This time the car felt faster. Undoubtedly strong. I have no more complaints about glacial times from 4200-6500. And here are the logs. First an overlay of the new boost values compared to the previous versions:



We can see that revision #2's boost profile dovetails from the earlier version after 5000rpms, exactly as the mapping asks. And here are the other data taken from this rev2 pull:



Ignition advance corrections show a hit during boost onset, but then the ECU slowly moves to restore mapped settings afterward. Yes, there are a couple smaller hits to the corrections data, but by the end of the pull virtually all of the retarded values have been restored. That's pretty impressive considering the toasty hot intake temperatures.

But what about power? Did we gain anything over what Map 2 delivers off the shelf? Have a look:



3.75 seconds, down from 3.98. And when the Time To RPMs is graphed, this difference is pretty easy to spot:



So with careful application of customized boost mapping, there is more power to be had on stock hardware. But I feel the car has reached the hardware limits point where testing of upgraded parts can start. Clearly the intercooling is candidate #1. And we've got a nice prototype from one of our suppliers waiting in the wings now. With luck we can get that fitted this upcoming week. We also have sensors and gauges ready to fit onto the stock exhaust system. With their data we can have some insight into the design bottleneck (or not) of the stock exhaust system.

Lastly, it has been a busy week and so I have not had the chance to read the many responses posted here. I will do so shortly, and reply back where I think responses will benefit the thread.

Thx

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo



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cmg5461 cmg5461 is offline
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Default 02-08-2016, 06:40 AM

Hi Doug,

As a fellow engineer, I have a few recommendations to help you really understand the complexity of this car's control system.

Buy the MHD flasher & monitor. Monitor is optional if you have a Bavarian Technic cable. For MHD you will need a kline/dcan cable which can be had for $50-$100 for a guarenteed working cable.

http://www.one-stop-electronics.com/...&product_id=16 (I can vouch for this cable - I own one)
or
http://bimmersoftware.com/cables (others have used these cables)

Avoid ebay/amazon cables. Some may work, but they tend to overheat and fry themselves.

Secondly, you should keep an eye on your fuel trims. There's a bit to enable bank 2 trims on avg_ign. If bank 1 or 2 get too high, it's time for a back-end flash. Overall, the call will run much better anyway.

A note on OBD monitoring - you can do this ONLY with the JB4 on map 0. The JB4 hijacks the can line and it can cause some serious issues trying to read data while the JB4 is sending spoof packets.

I suggest running one of the MHD flashes and monitoring the outputs. There's a lot more channels to read from than what the JB4 reports.

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. I have quite a bit of experience in this field and with these electronics. I'd love to help.

Chris



E90 335xi 6MT - Deep Green
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Jboyorak Jboyorak is offline
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Default 02-08-2016, 07:43 AM

MHD monitoring is highly recommended over BT cable. BT cable can not log individual cylinder timing corrections.
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Default 02-08-2016, 10:21 AM

I'm going to be very interested to watch this thread develop.
I'm still on the stock turbos myself and I expect I'll upgrade them when they eventually fail as they are being pushed over stock levels.

I'd like to see you get your car to a point where the fueling isn't a limiting factor for the stock turbos but I'm not sure that's possible without port injection or something to replace the high pressure fuel pump. FBO and low pressure pump having been done already of course.

I'd like to see just how high the stock turbos could be pushed but I gather we have numbers for the maximum rate at which they should be spinning before becoming terribly inefficient and generate so much heat that knock is a big factor. Seems like pushing the stocker to hard for too long will either destroy the bearings or blow an oil seal. It's not that much of a shock when around 8 psi is the stock level and we are pushing them closer to 20psi.


UK FBO 335i, GCs, JB4, PI meth, BMS CP, OCC, Braided brake lines. Diff Lockdown. TMAP sensor, custom bucketless stage2

11.79@119mph on stockers, CP meth (UK, Santa Pod)
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doug@frankenturbo.com doug@frankenturbo.com is offline
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Default 02-10-2016, 01:29 AM

Thank you to those of you who have been reading and posting into this thread. And I am grateful to the folks who know of me and my company for their praise.

I also appreciate the tuning advice. It's clear to me that the consensus is to incorporate the MHD flash-loading app into the process. Last week one person who contacted me directly more or less walked me through the items to buy.

My initial attitude was not very enthusiastic. Another device to buy? More expense and complication? This did not bode well for the kind of customers I generally seek. They want it simple and at a good price.

But I changed my attitude when I realized what a number of you already know: the hardware costs for interfacing with these cars are ridiculously low. I had no idea you can get a 7" Android tablet for less than $50. And the flash cable to pair it with was even less.

So that leaves the complex versus simple. I'm a Mac user so operating any Android device was from the very bottom of the learning curve. But the tablet easily connected with our WiFi network and within a few minutes was registered on Google's App store. With those things done, I was pleased to find a very "Apple-like" user experience getting the MHD app downloaded. Then I navigated to Burger Motorsports' link for their zipped library of MHD flash files.

So this was several steps. But for those price-resistant types, they really have no reason to complain. The tablet is cheap, the cable cheaper. The software is all free.

Wow.

So, I'm very impressed already.




As for the next steps with this logger, I'm interested to hear opinions on the library files I now have loaded to the tablet. The files are organized by vehicle series. Our test car is a late 2008 so the appropriate files are in the folder labeled "ije0s". Most of the files there don't apply. They're for bigger turbos or high octane fuels. But I do see one simply labeled "Pump".

I could use some perspective on this file. I've found data logs for it, and it appears to cause the engine's load calcs to go up, which in turn forces the timing advance down. This makes me think it's a file for quite high boost.

Also, I'd appreciate a bit of information on the MHD platform's logging capacity. It interfaces over OBD, so with the JB4 actively running and blocking the data port, how is the tablet able to capture anything?

Thx



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Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It! is offline
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Default 02-10-2016, 07:56 AM

You can not use the MHD as a logger when running the JB4, it will interfere with the CANbus and you'll run in to issues.

You should be able to see a file called JB4_MHD_IJEOS_PUMP.bin, this is the flash file you'll want to start with.



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Default 02-11-2016, 01:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve @ BMS/Fuel-It!
You can not use the MHD as a logger when running the JB4, it will interfere with the CANbus and you'll run in to issues.

You should be able to see a file called JB4_MHD_IJEOS_PUMP.bin, this is the flash file you'll want to start with.
Thanks for the clarification, Steve. This is what I'd thought to be the case. But before tinkering with the DME mapping, I wanted to cover off a hardware-limits question: how much back-pressure does the stock exhaust system generate? To answer that question, we plumbed a pressure signal line into housing of one of the forward cats.

Pix of the process:













Back-pressures peaked at nearly 8psi. That is pretty considerable! For a look at the boost versus back-pressures, here is a video:




Based on our testing of pre-turbine pressures in other platforms, I'd guess the exhaust manifold pressures are only about 30psi at this boost level. So 7+psi of downstream back-pressure is a considerable handicap for the turbines. It looks as though upgraded ********* are called for.




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nyt nyt is offline
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Default 02-11-2016, 04:38 AM

Curious to see what you get for a reading leaving the rear cats in place once you add *** up front.


2010 335ix - hybrids, cp, ic, inlets, outlets, jb4, pi, fuel-it stg3, backend flash
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Default 02-11-2016, 05:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
Thanks for the clarification, Steve. This is what I'd thought to be the case. But before tinkering with the DME mapping, I wanted to cover off a hardware-limits question: how much back-pressure does the stock exhaust system generate? To answer that question, we plumbed a pressure signal line into housing of one of the forward cats.

Pix of the process:













Back-pressures peaked at nearly 8psi. That is pretty considerable! For a look at the boost versus back-pressures, here is a video:




Based on our testing of pre-turbine pressures in other platforms, I'd guess the exhaust manifold pressures are only about 30psi at this boost level. So 7+psi of downstream back-pressure is a considerable handicap for the turbines. It looks as though upgraded ********* are called for.


So what is the aim? To show the benefits of going FBO? *********, intercooler and intakes.

These days inlets could pretty much be added to that list.

Anyone wanting to upgrade their turbos will want to be FBO and inlets to reap the benefits.


UK FBO 335i, GCs, JB4, PI meth, BMS CP, OCC, Braided brake lines. Diff Lockdown. TMAP sensor, custom bucketless stage2

11.79@119mph on stockers, CP meth (UK, Santa Pod)
11.74@129mph on GCs, custom port meth injection.
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Enfiftyfore Enfiftyfore is offline
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Default 02-11-2016, 05:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
Thanks for the clarification, Steve. This is what I'd thought to be the case. But before tinkering with the DME mapping, I wanted to cover off a hardware-limits question: how much back-pressure does the stock exhaust system generate? To answer that question, we plumbed a pressure signal line into housing of one of the forward cats.

Pix of the process:













Back-pressures peaked at nearly 8psi. That is pretty considerable! For a look at the boost versus back-pressures, here is a video:




Based on our testing of pre-turbine pressures in other platforms, I'd guess the exhaust manifold pressures are only about 30psi at this boost level. So 7+psi of downstream back-pressure is a considerable handicap for the turbines. It looks as though upgraded ********* are called for.


You're going to make a lot of friends here and fast. Your posts are extremely informative and you're paving your own path. I can't wait until you guys start making turbos. You can haz my monies.
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08_335i 08_335i is offline
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Default 02-11-2016, 06:24 AM

Doug is a great guy, he's very informative and has no problem asking questions and giving answers. He digs deep into any project he works on, and makes sure that he has all his ducks in a row, obviously. The past few days I've been helping him get all set up with MHD etc.I look forward to seeing all the information he ends up gathering and what he ends up doing with it all. I smell lots of benefits to anyone still running stock turbos/stock frame turbos.
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Stucks Stucks is offline
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Default 02-11-2016, 06:50 AM

Wow that is a very informative post. keep it up!


Current: 2008 e92 335i coupe.

Previous: 2003 Honda Accord V6 coupe: AEM V2, zex 75 wet shot (sold)
Past 1998 acura integra rs: jrsc @ 6 psi and bolt ons.
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Default 02-11-2016, 08:12 AM

I like your process.
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Lurcher99 Lurcher99 is offline
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Default 02-11-2016, 10:18 AM

I'd still love to find out the limits to horsepower without replacing the cats. Been there/done that and don't really want to risk inspection issues any more - even though this now proves there is something to be gained from it - just how much is the issue. I don't ever plan on going crazy on this, as it's my DD, but knowing if 400, 425, 450 is my theoretical limit would be nice..
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dlp3719 dlp3719 is offline
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Default 02-11-2016, 08:11 PM

I appreciate what you are doing. Look forward to you (hopefully) building us some turbo's.

You can assume anyone buying turbo's has done intake, inlets, FMIC, chargepipe, ***, fuel pump for e85 and will buy a N20 TMAP sensor. Has a flash tune (BB or MHD) and a piggyback tune (JB4). Meth is a maybe. On second thought I guess e85 is a maybe as well because not everyone has access. But if no e85, they likely have meth.


2007 n54 e90 sedan (1/07 date), JB4 G5 ISO - Map 3, BMS DCI, BMS Trunk Tank Meth Kit - two nozzle - CM7/CM10, BMS OCC, MHD Trebilia Flash, e60 (5 gallons of 93 and 11 gallons E85), Stage 2 from Fuel-It, VRSF 7" FMIC, N54tuning.com V1 **, ER Charge Pipe w/Tial BOV, NGK Iridium (one-step colder) plugs, N20 TMAP Sensor, RB turbo inlets, VTT outlets
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guru_method guru_method is offline
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Default 02-11-2016, 11:50 PM

I respect the scientific method of hands-on experimentation as the best route to fully understanding the platform.

This can only result in better products.
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Default 02-12-2016, 01:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher99
I'd still love to find out the limits to horsepower without replacing the cats. Been there/done that and don't really want to risk inspection issues any more - even though this now proves there is something to be gained from it - just how much is the issue. I don't ever plan on going crazy on this, as it's my DD, but knowing if 400, 425, 450 is my theoretical limit would be nice..
How familiar are you (and the others following here) with a Windows application called Virtual Dyno? I've been experimenting with it. And once again, I can't believe what great tools you N54 guys have versus VW/Audi. Here is the link to the (of course) free software:

http://www.virtualdyno.net

I will post some graphs taken from our test car. They indicate to me that there's surely plenty of power with a stock exhaust system.


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chuckd05 chuckd05 is offline
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Default 02-12-2016, 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com
How familiar are you (and the others following here) with a Windows application called Virtual Dyno? I've been experimenting with it. And once again, I can't believe what great tools you N54 guys have versus VW/Audi. Here is the link to the (of course) free software:

http://www.virtualdyno.net

I will post some graphs taken from our test car. They indicate to me that there's surely plenty of power with a stock exhaust system.
A bunch use it, it seems to be accurate to a certain degree when you have your gear ratio and weights right, along with flat ground. Obv can be used for comparison sake. Some use it for more then that but it could def be a helpful program/tool. It's common in the BMW N54 world.


e92
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Default 02-13-2016, 03:20 PM

Some work-in-progress analysis using Virtual Dyno software. Considering the bone-stock hardware, the car has come up in power quite a lot.

Stock factory map:




JB4 Map1




JB4 Map6 (16psi)




Next up: another form of data measurement...air masses.

Thx


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Default 02-13-2016, 03:31 PM

Subscribed


09 E92 335i - GULF Version, Hot-Climate Version, Middle East package, M Sports suspension, 19" Rims, 6AT with Xhp stage 2 flash, JB4 - Map 3 - MHD BMS Race Flash with modified Duty Bais and PID - BMS Oil Cooler Valve - RB PCV - K&N drop in Filter - AFE Air Scoops - 98 Super Fuel - WAGNER FMIC - 3" **'s - BMS Water/Meth 40/60 VP Racing M1 with 70 adder
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Default 02-13-2016, 03:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com

Next up: another form of data measurement...air masses.

Thx
Doug, I am interested in what you find regarding the factory airbox. Prior to inlets being available, the factory airbox was considered to be a large restriction. To what degree is it with inlets? How does that compare to DCI now?

After upgrading inlets, the increased noise was a turn off for me so I went back to the factory airbox. Is there any issue with this once you do decide to pass certain hp markers?

Thanks
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jtrejo jtrejo is offline
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Default 02-13-2016, 04:25 PM

what is the model for the $50 tablet? and what is the best cable for the flashing?


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Default 02-13-2016, 05:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrejo
what is the model for the $50 tablet? and what is the best cable for the flashing?
Forum member 08_335i told me to get those items I linked to in the above post. I haven't yet tried flashing but I expect they'll work just as well as they have for others.


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Default 02-13-2016, 05:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawhiz
Doug, I am interested in what you find regarding the factory airbox. Prior to inlets being available, the factory airbox was considered to be a large restriction. To what degree is it with inlets? How does that compare to DCI now?

After upgrading inlets, the increased noise was a turn off for me so I went back to the factory airbox. Is there any issue with this once you do decide to pass certain hp markers?

Thanks
These modern cars have terrific airflow management designs. Look at its layout: hood scoops convey rapidly-moving air straight to an enormous filter. It's a cold-air intake. So as far as I'm concerned, unless you're trying to build a ginormously powerful car, that system is fine. Sadly, in the case of our test car, the airbox had to go so we could properly plumb in a MAF sensor. But I performed before/after testing and saw zero benefit on an otherwise stock car. Look at the virtual dyno charts above. The airbox is supporting well over 400bhp.


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Weehe Weehe is offline
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Default 02-13-2016, 08:40 PM

If you want a MAF sensor, get a N55. I wish I could get rid of my MAF lol.
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