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Default JB4 hybrid turbo setup & notes - 09-01-2015, 08:14 PM

Hey guys,

We're going to use this thread to keep notes related to setting up OEM modified twin turbos (e.g. hybrid turbos) including RB, PURE, Vargas, Hexon, etc. Feel free to post questions as you have them and I'll work on updating the post with answers as we go.

Basic setup notes:

1) Larger than OEM turbos require a back end flash map to be loaded via the BB free software or MHD software.

2) You'll need a 3.5bar TMAP sensor to allow proper boost control above the 20psi factory TMAP sensor limit. The required adapter and part number are both here: http://www.burgertuning.com/N54_JB4_upgrades.html

3) We strongly suggest a BMS OCC, RB PCV valve, and a high flow inlet system with larger turbos.

4) Use the flash map that most appropriately matches the octane to be used. For pump gas no meth use PUMP, for pump gas with meth or light E85 or race gas mixtures use RACE, and for 40% E85 or more use E85 HYBRID map.

5) For E85, no meth, TBI or port injection is required to supplement the high pressure fuel system. At a minimum Fuel-IT Stage1 low pressure upgrade is required and in most cases with E85 a Fuel-IT Stage3 low pressure upgrade is suggested.

6) Larger turbos require special duty bias adjustments to get boost on target. Note default settings below as a starting point.

7) We suggest starting with a lower map like map 2 to evaluate boost control and then working up from there.

...Will add more as we have it! Feel free to direct any hybrid turbo tuning questions to this thread and Steve, Jon, or myself will answer.
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Default 09-01-2015, 08:19 PM

This makes me wish I bought an N54


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Default 09-01-2015, 09:32 PM

Awesome idea Terry, this will be very helpful and probably cut down the amount of questions people have when upgrading there turbos.
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Default 09-01-2015, 10:06 PM

Gotta love the updates and support!!


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Default 09-01-2015, 10:46 PM

I look forward to some good info here great idea Terry.


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Default 09-02-2015, 09:49 AM

The thread will come in handy as I'm working on some hybrid specific spool up code changes right now. Could use a few logs from various hybrid turbos in say 4th gear starting at 1800rpm. You can stop around 4000rpm or whenever boost is fully on target.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 09-02-2015, 06:24 PM

subscribed! Great thread Terry!

Looking forward to seeing your advancements for point #6.

Will 3rd gear logs not suffice?
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Default 09-02-2015, 06:31 PM

Terry I can do whatever testing you need, just say what you need logged.

Regular RBs with thrust upgrade, TFT inlets, HFS meth kit 100% meth, FBO, JB4 G5/BMS E85 flash/MHD E60 blend stg 2 LPFP.


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Default 09-02-2015, 08:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltalima0
Terry I can do whatever testing you need, just say what you need logged.

Regular RBs with thrust upgrade, TFT inlets, HFS meth kit 100% meth, FBO, JB4 G5/BMS E85 flash/MHD E60 blend stg 2 LPFP.
OK cool drop me a note and I can shoot something over to test.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 09-04-2015, 07:09 AM

Subscribed!


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Default 09-04-2015, 07:58 AM

Nice Have a friend who can test the new stuff. European car. Email me if you want tiagobaloca@gmail.com


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Default 09-04-2015, 08:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltalima0
Terry I can do whatever testing you need, just say what you need logged.

Regular RBs with thrust upgrade, TFT inlets, HFS meth kit 100% meth, FBO, JB4 G5/BMS E85 flash/MHD E60 blend stg 2 LPFP.
Thanks for the logs on the test firmware. During spool when boost is more than 3psi below target it holds PWM at 100%. We've found this to be the perfect balance between spool speed and over shoot.

Next up I'll email you about redoing duty bias using a new function that lets us eliminate the unevenness in the FF curve.
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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 09-05-2015, 09:27 AM

Here is the same car using the new larger turbo duty bias logic. Basically this removes any RPM gain from the duty bias calculation and lets you enter the RPM based gain manually. The benefit is this eliminates jagged FF steps you'd see between RPM break points. Those are caused by the JB4 mapping doing one thing and the manual FF bias adjustment doing another between the 500 rpm break points entered.

Disable FF gain is within the FUD bits options.

On the test car this was done with duty bias all set to 50. It's on RB turbos with inlets and those work pretty well with no RPM gain due to reduced back pressure. But you can see PWM trending up slightly relative to FF so we'll add 2 to each position starting at 4000rpm to trend FF up to match. Also note there is an EGT calculation based decay rate built in to FF which is why you see it trending down as the run continues.
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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 09-06-2015, 08:28 AM

Adjusted his duty bias slightly with the FUD = 95 option and PWM and FF are now moving nicely together. We scaled everything up to 60 instead of the default 50 as with the 3.5bar TMAP sensor his FF was sitting close to 150 and out of range. Shifting everything up 10 on duty bias allowed FF to get down to 130 allowing for both upward and downward movement in the future.
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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 09-06-2015, 09:47 AM

This looks promising, Terry. But what about the slight overboost causing throttle closure right after boost meets target? I'm getting the same thing with the old Duty Bias tuning method. Haven't tried the new method just yet.


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Log, log, then log some more...
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Default 09-06-2015, 12:15 PM

That just tells you the spool up and boost targeting is working well. Throttle movement of less than 30% is rather irrelevent. If you spend all day trying to to tune that out you'll be going slower in the long run. The best way to "fix" it would be a manual FUA setting to reduce the throttle safety. Which I would not suggest either unless there is some good reason to do so. As a general rule most of you guys worry much more about throttle than you should. It's like the "hot air intake" myth of tuning. It has to close 40% or more for more than a second or two before you even start to notice a torque output change on a dyno chart. Yet people will dramatically dampen their performance just to avoid even minor movement. It makes no sense.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 09-06-2015, 12:29 PM

I could care less about the throttle actually closing that amount. I was just curious about the overboost, which for me causes timing delay and fueling problems with high E85 mixes.


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Default 09-06-2015, 01:41 PM

You will need to evaluate your logs and adjust your duty bias by RPM settings as needed for your specific tuning objectives.


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Default 09-07-2015, 12:58 AM

Terry, I have ISO 31.1, will update it today.

With Hexon RR500 the power surges too abruptly, the car is much more wild than is sometimes convenient

Today I will send you the log on 4th, from 1800rpm, OK?


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Default 09-07-2015, 02:09 AM

I like this thread. Good information for bigger turbos


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Default 09-07-2015, 06:27 AM

So here it is: log on 4th 1700-4000rpm, Raceflash and map2.
Hexon RR500.
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File Type: csv 2015-09-07 14_31_38.csv (10.6 KB, 446 views)


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Default 09-07-2015, 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by miksebik
So here it is: log on 4th 1700-4000rpm, Raceflash and map2.
Hexon RR500.
Looks pretty tame to me? Shrug. If you are talking part throttle then log that, uncheck view WOT only to log part throttle. Given how low PWM is at 17psi you probably need a lower menu 12 setting. Something like 2000rpm.
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Burger Motorsports
Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 09-07-2015, 12:22 PM

Hi Terry .
I run fbo+meth+mmp inlet+rb turbo stage 2 and I have the map sensor 3.5.
I am targeting 28 or 30 psi
So what I have to do
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Default 09-07-2015, 12:42 PM

What fuel? Load the race back and flash and start by logging map 3 with a 50 additive to evaluate it.


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It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.
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Default 09-07-2015, 12:51 PM

I will run vp109.
Should I do the back end flash with the cable or with mhd?
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