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Default 09-02-2015, 11:36 PM

My czech N54 is in! :-) What are the prices?


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Default 09-03-2015, 01:02 AM

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Default 09-03-2015, 06:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
in fact, I'm tuning the DCT "load to torques" tables in an opposite way than 6AT ones.

instead of lowering L2T values (for 6AT), I raise them even higher than stock ones to lock the DCT.

I see neither a shift delay in this log, nor DCT slippage.
We can share technical informations by e-mail if you want, and you'll show me how a DCT shift log should look like



WGDC curve (green) in this log is the actual torque calculated by the DME.
as you can see, it tapper at barely 450-480 ft-lb at 6500 rpm right before the upshift.
I'm still working with the customer on it, still raising the torque values, and no "DCT overheat" alarm.
I'll show it to you right here.....

This is what a DCT car is supposed to look like with post shifts either little to no timing drops

http://***********/u/t-cash702/335is-...21&zoom=25-129

Another example

http://***********/u/lamboworld/bqe50...11-12-13-14-21

No timing drop during post shift

http://***********/u/mnick/bq-e60?log...21&zoom=15-117

Was it a fluke ? , well lets look at another log of another car

http://***********/u/veloman62/335is-...19&zoom=52-232

Here is another, different car, the mother of them all

http://www.***********/u/buraq/bq20?l...19&zoom=39-229

and here is the latest one I am working on being retuned with inlets

http://www.***********/u/mnick/bqe60-...22&zoom=22-108

I just think you have a misunderstanding of how the DCT should be tuned.


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2011 E92 335is w/DCT
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Last edited by BuraQ; 09-03-2015 at 06:55 PM..
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Default 09-03-2015, 06:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ink
Would be good to share your thoughts you have to offer with DCT Buraq.

The only log thread for DCT shifts i can find is this one:

http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...n-on-JB4-graph
See above post


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Default 09-04-2015, 01:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuraQ
I'll show it to you right here.....

This is what a DCT car is supposed to look like with post shifts either little to no timing drops

http://***********/u/t-cash702/335is-...21&zoom=25-129

Another example

http://***********/u/lamboworld/bqe50...11-12-13-14-21

No timing drop during post shift

http://***********/u/mnick/bq-e60?log...21&zoom=15-117

Was it a fluke ? , well lets look at another log of another car

http://***********/u/veloman62/335is-...19&zoom=52-232

Here is another, different car, the mother of them all

http://www.***********/u/buraq/bq20?l...19&zoom=39-229

and here is the latest one I am working on being retuned with inlets

http://www.***********/u/mnick/bqe60-...22&zoom=22-108

I just think you have a misunderstanding of how the DCT should be tuned.
Hi Buraq
thanks for sharing your DCT logs.
Always better to have more information, specially with DCT upshifts logs.

I think you misunderstand the difference between timing drops and timing cuts while upshifting.
If the upshift is fast enough, you won't see any timing cuts at all.


Overall the logs provided:
1) you run each time much less boost
2) the drivers shortshift around 6000 rpm, whereas in my log, upshift @6500 rpm
3) JB4 timing cylinder 2->6 logging frequency is different from cyl 1 one (the most accurate).
4) where are the raw timing curve in your logs? If I choose to display only cyl1 raw timing and cyl2->6 timing correction, I'll have the same perfect timing curves than you.
5) we can see upshift timing cuts in your logs too.

with pics:

my log: 20.5 psi during upshift at 6560 rpm, timing cut (6 advance only on cyl 2->6, 12 advance on cyl 1)


your logs:
log 1: 15.26 psi, upshift at 6000 rpm, and a timing cut (-2 retard on cyl 1):


log 2: 14.31 psi, upshift at 6181 rpm, and a timing cut (-3.75 retard on cyl 1):


log 3: 16.6 psi, upshift at 5800rpm, and a timing cut (3 adance on cyl 1):


log4: 15.3 psi, upshift at 6200 rpm, and a timing cut (-0.8 timing retard):


log 5: your car: 16.7 psi, upshift at 6200 rpm, no timing cut in this upshift, but a little one in the later upshift (9 timing advance on cyl 1).


log 6: 17.53 psi, upshift at 5832rpm, no timing cut on cyl 1:


If I select only cylinder 1 raw timing, here is what my log looks like:
21.5 psi midrange, tappering to 20.6 psi right before the upshift, boost drop to 19.8 psi during the upshift, and no timing cut at 12.7 advance!!!



no DCT slippage during or after the upshift, much more boost than in your logs, really strong timing, no "DCT overheat" alarms.

csv file attached.
I think it's a damn good log for a first try.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 2015-08-28 22_50_17.csv (12.7 KB, 172 views)


FBO N54 AT 135i 'vert with JB4 and Trebila Performance custom flash

Last edited by trebila; 09-04-2015 at 01:57 AM..
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cebrailbakan cebrailbakan is offline
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Default 09-04-2015, 02:21 AM

You see buraq ?


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Default 09-04-2015, 04:52 AM

6k isn't really short shifting at least not for us stock turbo guys lol. It's pretty much the standard for stock turbos. I am jealous of no major boost taper in the DCT RB log. Must be nice to have upgraded twins/inlets.

I think what BuraQ may have been alluding to do is how a few of the cylinders timing lags behind at the shift. At one point cylinders 2-6 were 6 degrees behind cyl 1. I am pretty sure those would be displayed as 'corrections' if logged that way with the JB4, though raw timing is easier to interpret as the JB4 used to graph the corrections as a positive value (indicating how much it corrected) instead of a negative value like Cobb/MHD. For that reason everyone logs raw timing on JB4 vs corrections on Cobb/MHD.

I'd have to dig up some old JB4 logs but as Trebila mentioned I remember Terry saying something about Cyl2-6 timing sampling being slower/lower on JB4 which could cause the lag given how quick the DCT shifts compared to an AT or MT.
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Default 09-04-2015, 05:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by musc

I think what BuraQ may have been alluding to do is how a few of the cylinders timing lags behind at the shift. At one point cylinders 2-6 were 6 degrees behind cyl 1. I am pretty sure those would be displayed as 'corrections' if logged that way with the JB4, though raw timing is easier to interpret as the JB4 used to graph the corrections as a positive value (indicating how much it corrected) instead of a negative value like Cobb/MHD. For that reason everyone logs raw timing on JB4 vs corrections on Cobb/MHD.
the thing is:
in most of Buraq logs, cyl 1 timing dive to negative timing (retard) during upshift, and is not logged as a timing correction (look at cyl 1 timing correction). So why woud it be the case in my logs ?
So we can think all cylinders may have the same behaviour. Only way to know is to log raw timing.


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Default 09-04-2015, 05:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
the thing is:
in most of Buraq logs, cyl 1 timing dive to negative timing (retard) during upshift, and is not logged as a timing correction (look at cyl 1 timing correction). So why woud it be the case in my logs ?
So we can think all cylinders may have the same behaviour. Only way to know is to log raw timing.
Good point. I only used JB4 Cyl 2-6 corrections for like 2 logs back in the day and I didn't really care for how it displayed so I went back to raw timing. Corrections are just easier to read with Cobb/MHD in Datazap. I am not sure if your DCT log would show those as corrections or not. Cyl 2 and 6 did lag behind until almost 6k of the next gear which is why I assumed it may be a correction.

So yes raw timing needs to be logged to know for sure. You could also log the DCT with JB4 corrections as well to see if there is any correction displayed in the shift window. With MHD it shouldn't be a problem to log corrections and raw timing on all cylinders at the same time/same log for quick comparison.
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Default 09-04-2015, 05:47 AM

So I went out and grabbed a quick log. Couldn't do my normal multi gear log due to time of day

I have a 335is, DCT, FBO, E80, etc blah blah. Stock inlet/turbo on a BuraQ flash. I logged Cyl 1-6 corrections and Cyl 1-6 raw timing. As you can see raw timing is exactly the same cylinder to cylinder. No variation during the shift. No lag post shift. No corrections.

http://www.***********/u/notmynormald...19-20-21-22-23

Your turn See if your guy can log the JB4 RB DCT car but this time use Cyl 2-6 timing corrections instead of raw timing (too bad you can do both at same time!). That would give us an idea if that lag is just slow data rate from logging or actually post shift timing correction/lag.

Hopefully I am not side tracking your thread. This seemed like an interesting and relevant discussion and I'm definitely not bashing your tune. The shift looks okay to me but I am curious about the lag being correction vs slow data rate/etc. It is something I never really explored when I used the JB4 before.

Last edited by musc; 09-04-2015 at 05:55 AM..
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Default 09-04-2015, 06:01 AM

that's exactly what I was talking about:

all cylinders cut their timing during postshift, and it's not considered as a timing correction:



according to Buraq, your log (Buraq tune) doesn't look like a good DCT upshift.


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Default 09-04-2015, 06:14 AM

This is the log you posted. Virtually every cylinder is recovering at different rate, 6 degree gaps on some and they don't level out until 6k RPM. That's not post shift timing corrections? I don't think BuraQ was arguing that having a timing cut that last <0.1 second is abnormal but rather all your cylinder raw timings are doing something different post shift. Simply log Cyl 2-6 corrections. Even though you won't be able to compare it at the same time/same log as raw, you should see if there are any post shift corrections. If it shows corrections then there is work to do. If not, then the lag is a data lag and not a tuning issue.

The other thing is that JB4 logs do not show negative values. So timing will only be 0 at its lowest. This is why corrections are reported as a positive value as well. So if you were combing through JB4 logs looking at timing cut at shift, JB4 will never below zero even though it could be still actually be a few degrees retarded. Just a limitation of how it logs.


Last edited by musc; 09-04-2015 at 06:51 AM..
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Default 09-04-2015, 06:59 AM

Trebila, please explain the difference i will see in my performance when i flash your tune with BB or MHD. Thanks.


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Default 09-04-2015, 07:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by musc
This is the log you posted. Virtually every cylinder is recovering at different rate, 6 degree gaps on some and they don't level out until 6k RPM. That's not post shift timing corrections? I don't think BuraQ was arguing that having a timing cut that last <0.1 second is abnormal but rather all your cylinder raw timings are doing something different post shift. Simply log Cyl 2-6 corrections. Even though you won't be able to compare it at the same time/same log as raw, you should see if there are any post shift corrections. If it shows corrections then there is work to do. If not, then the lag is a data lag and not a tuning issue.

The other thing is that JB4 logs do not show negative values. So timing will only be 0 at its lowest. This is why corrections are reported as a positive value as well. So if you were combing through JB4 logs looking at timing cut at shift, JB4 will never below zero even though it could be still actually be a few degrees retarded. Just a limitation of how it logs.

you're right, slight timing corrections on cyl 2 and 6, dropping from 12 to 10.8 timing advance, while boosting at 20.2 psi during upshift, and recovering pretty well, this with E40 + meth.
Maybe because I don't lower as hard as others tuners the knock sensitivity tables, for safety reasons.



but I don't think that's what Buraq was arguing first, and I don't see the point between this and hypothetical DCT slippage or a "wrong DCT upshift log".


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Last edited by trebila; 09-04-2015 at 09:08 AM..
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Default 09-04-2015, 10:25 AM

I don't think what you are seeing post shift is knock table related.

Well maybe BuraQ can explain exactly what he meant but I am assumed it was the big gap and disparity of the timing at the shift point. You said it's because he didn't record raw timing but in my log displaying both corrections and raw timing things line up perfect.
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Default 09-04-2015, 10:34 AM

This log was made a week ago, not bad for a first try.
Already made various tweaks to the bin with good results.
Right now, I haven't seen a single DCT upshift log with this boost (20psi) during the upshift.
Hopefully, more DCT logs with higher ethanol content will come shortly.


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Default 09-04-2015, 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
This log was made a week ago, not bad for a first try.
Already made various tweaks to the bin with good results.
Right now, I haven't seen a single DCT upshift log with this boost (20psi) during the upshift.
Hopefully, more DCT logs with higher ethanol content will come shortly.
I am sure you will get it ironed out. Looking forward to seeing your progress. The nice thing about the DCT is that it all happens so quick you really don't even notice these variations that take place over the course of microseconds. Get me some turbos/inlets and I will upshift at that boost For now I will have to taper.
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Default 09-04-2015, 01:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
that's exactly what I was talking about:

all cylinders cut their timing during postshift, and it's not considered as a timing correction:



according to Buraq, your log (Buraq tune) doesn't look like a good DCT upshift.
According to me, how so ? I made it very clear. The subject of concern was "Shift Delay" and I showed you an example of how the DCT is suppose to performance with no timing lag. Post shift timing lag in logs for a DCT is a shift delay (unless its torque intervention by ignition) and that is exactly what is in the log your posted in the OP. Its perfectly normal to see a certain amount of timing lag in 6AT cars.

I mentioned nothing about timing corrections, I said timing drops which are completely two different things.

Lets recant on what I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuraQ
I'll show it to you right here.....

This is what a DCT car is supposed to look like with post shifts either little to no timing drops
Where did I say "timing corrections" or negating timing drops during post shift aren't normal events ? The DME can pull timing without it registering as a timing correction for an elaborate reason

It seems you didn't understand me when I mentioned shift delay in terms of the DCT which is seen as timing lag. You example log of the DCT in the OP is what I was addressing which was not a good example to promote your tuning IMO


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Default 09-04-2015, 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuraQ
Post shift timing lag in logs for a DCT is a shift delay (unless its torque intervention by ignition) and that is exactly what is in the log your posted in the OP.
I intentionnaly let the "Disable Torque reduction by ignition" feature to stock value in the bin for this log, to check if the actual torque calculated was too high or too low.

I think what you call "shift delay", or "timing lag", is higly related to the frequency rate of the logging channel (ie the logger).

Maybe you're not confortable with JB4 logs, as a standalone tuner.

cyl#1 timing logging frequency rate is higher in the JB4, compared to #2 to #6.
I think it's the same for all 6 channels on the MHD logger, which seems to be the same frequency rate than cyl #1 in the jb4.

If you look at my JB4 cyl 1 timing curve only, you won't even see a timing cut (meaning absolutely no "shift delay" or "timing lag" ), only a slight timing correction because of the stock safety " torque reduction by ignition" feature.

Only Terry and Martial can confirm this or not.



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Default 09-04-2015, 03:38 PM

Based on my experience with the DCT and tuning, I would tend to agree with BuraQ and Musc in this situation. The "droop" in timing you see after the shift appears to be the engagement period of the clutches in the DCT.

The DCT uses timing adjustments to manage torque during clutch engagement. On a good "hard" shift, there is almost none that is perceptible in any log that I've seen. In a slower "sloppy" shift where you can tell the DCT is not engaging quickly, you see a timing adjustment or droop as shown in your log. (I have seen worse).

The RPM slope fluctuation after the shift seems to also match up with a delayed clutch engagement, straightening out once the clutches are fully engaged and timing is no longer being adjusted by the transmission. This further seems to point to a delayed in clutch engagement.

This behavior is why I previously recommended that DCT cars not disable Torque Reduction by Ignition as it won't allow the DCT to properly adjust torque for smooth engagement.

Just my $.02 based on my experience.
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Default 09-04-2015, 03:46 PM

Desertdude, do you have JB4 logs of your car?


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Default 09-04-2015, 03:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebila
Only Terry and Martial can confirm this or not.
Not been following the conversation but PIDs like cyl1 timing are being sampled at 10hz and RAM access like cyl2-6 timing & corrections are being sampled at 3-5hz, depending on what else the JB4 is doing at that moment. Since knock corrections occur and then decay over a few seconds there was no need to sample them at a higher rate. Cyl1 is where you'll look at the actual mapped values so use that value as a fairly reliable source for shift induced torque drops, etc. With the DCT it's possible for the shift to be so fast it occurs between samples as seen above.

Another good value to look at is DME calculated torque. We've added that to the most recent JB4 firmware in the duty cycle location, mapped 0-7000rpm = 0-1000lb/ft of torque. Generally you will see that dip down during shifts to coincide with the timing drop.


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Default 09-04-2015, 04:07 PM

PS. trebila's concept to shift the calculated torque much higher than actual is absolutely the best way to tune high hp DCT cars. I've done a few large single turbo DCT cars that way with mostly great results. Works very well.


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Default 09-04-2015, 04:12 PM

Someone else mentioned that, do not Disable Torque Reduction by Ignition or you will get DCT slip. In my experience that is not true at all. The log i posted has it disabled and I have had it disabled the few years I have had my car on backend flash or flash only. I've never had slip on Flash only and when I had slip on the JB4 before it was unrelated to to that setting. I was able to eliminate DCT slip without keeping torque reduction by ignition enabled and long before manipulating L2T tables was common.

So if the JB4 is sampling at a lower rate then there could be some lag because of the speed these shifts
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Default 09-04-2015, 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by musc
Someone else mentioned that, do not Disable Torque Reduction by Ignition or you will get DCT slip. In my experience that is not true at all. The log i posted has it disabled and I have had it disabled the few years I have had my car on backend flash or flash only. I've never had slip on Flash only and when I had slip on the JB4 before it was unrelated to to that setting. I was able to eliminate DCT slip without keeping torque reduction by ignition enabled and long before manipulating L2T tables was common.

So if the JB4 is sampling at a lower rate then there could be some lag because of the speed these shifts
We always disable it. Don't think it does much one way or the other though.

The only flash specific change needed for big power DCTs is boosting calculated torque up another 10-20% over actual toque. That is until you run in to the holding power limits of the clutches themselves.


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