[Driver72]

Well, it's been probably 2 years since I've hit the drag strip and 5-6 since I've been to the track.

I'm itching badly to hit them up again (mostly the track this time).

I currently don't have a "fun" or performance car and it's time to start shopping again.

I've been contemplating everything from a lightly used e92 M3 DCT to a lightly used Mazda Miata. Then there part of me that feels, get the new Subaru BRZ for track use.

I almost always buy new, but since this car will be mainly a track (and maybe even occasional drag strip) car, I don't mind a lightly used one in great shape.

I don't really care about ultimate speed for drag strip use, but am more concerned about a car that can handle track lapping. And I also don't mind putting a bit into it to make sure it's up to track use. I'm not looking to set track records, just have a good time once a month at the track, so I don't need to put $5k in suspension work, a grand or two in brake upgrades, etc.
But pads and lines would probably be installed if the car doesn't have pads ready for track use.

Again, I just want a fun car.
Budget can be anywhere from $15k, but probably won't spend over $50k on a car that will be used primarily for occasional use.

I know, I know, I probably should not of sold my 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 that had the Brembo brake package, I put FRPP springs on it and upgraded wheels and tires, along with the intake and tune.
That would of still served the purpose perfectly. So now I wonder if I should get the Boss 302?

Suggestions?

[ibsr335]

I say get a c5 z06. You can find them for under $20k. They pull 1g stock on a skip pad, are mid to low 12sec cars stock, and they get mid to high 20mpg. With basic bolts on it can be an 11sec car and hang with some P cars on the track aswell. I replaced my 335 with one 2 yrs ago and they only thing is no backseat can be a pain, but it sounds like what you want the car for that won't matter.

IMHO I think there are very few cars that can hold there own on both a straight and curved track. The c5z will hold its own in both areas.

[Driver72]

I've considered a ZO6, but probably a C6 that's a few years old and has low mileage.
However, after reading some of the articles about it again, I forgot how much of a handful that car is on a track. I'm no professional test driver, so I don't really want a car that's a handful on the track, I'd prefer one that's more forgiving and less likely to spin out, where the C6 ZO6 has a bad habit of spinning from power oversteer around corners.
Yes, for fun i'd rather have a car that I can induce some power oversteer, but one that's a bit more neutral and easier to control.


Question for those of you who care:

If you could buy a 1995 Toyota Supra Turbo Targa Top 6 speed manual with only 38,000 miles is garaged and mint, has always been total stock, never modded, for around $30k would you do it?

[SlicktopTTZ]

I don't like the Targa Top. Heavy too for a track car. Old and crappy brakes and steering feel.

Of course you get the monster 2JZ. But that is expensive, I thought your budget was $20k?

You could find a really nice S2000 and supercharge it. Awesome track car with low wear and tear because it is LIGHT. Plus you get that raw roadster experience.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

I don't like the Targa Top. Heavy too for a track car. Old and crappy brakes and steering feel.

Of course you get the monster 2JZ. But that is expensive, I thought your budget was $20k?

You could find a really nice S2000 and supercharge it. Awesome track car with low wear and tear because it is LIGHT. Plus you get that raw roadster experience.

No I don't have a budget of $20k, I really don't have a set budget, but I'd be less likely to take a $60k car to the track, maybe to a drag strip, but not to a road course.
Yeah the 2JZ is a monster, but I was unaware of it being expensive to mod?
I thought it was relatively cheap and easy to make 400 rwhp out of that car, and of course make 800 hp can be done, but I'd have no interest in going that high.

The S2000 would be a good candidate, I've also considered a 2-3 year old Miata. Granted it doesn't have a whole lot of power, but apparently its a lot of fun to drive on a track.
I'm not interested in being the fastest around the track either, it's not about that to me, it's about just having fun.
I'm also considering the new Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S
For $25k they seem to be made for a road course.
With 200 hp in a 2700 lbs car they won't be road rockets, but should be plenty quick. And with a super low center of gravity, turning corners should be easy and quite fun.

I'll look into the S2000 more too. Any other suggestions?

[SlicktopTTZ]

Originally Posted by Driver72

No I don't have a budget of $20k, I really don't have a set budget, but I'd be less likely to take a $60k car to the track, maybe to a drag strip, but not to a road course.
Yeah the 2JZ is a monster, but I was unaware of it being expensive to mod?
I thought it was relatively cheap and easy to make 400 rwhp out of that car, and of course make 800 hp can be done, but I'd have no interest in going that high.

The S2000 would be a good candidate, I've also considered a 2-3 year old Miata. Granted it doesn't have a whole lot of power, but apparently its a lot of fun to drive on a track.
I'm not interested in being the fastest around the track either, it's not about that to me, it's about just having fun.
I'm also considering the new Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S
For $25k they seem to be made for a road course.
With 200 hp in a 2700 lbs car they won't be road rockets, but should be plenty quick. And with a super low center of gravity, turning corners should be easy and quite fun.

I'll look into the S2000 more too. Any other suggestions?

Oh no the Supra isn't expensive to mod relative to like Porches, it's just $30K for that old of a car is kind of a joke. I can pick up a good condition Twin-Turbo 300zx which has similar performance and potential for about $7,000-$10,000.

Honestly, the Miata doesn't compare to the S2000 with the F20C. (The early model with 9,000RPM redline).

If you weren't to get the Miata, I'd wait for the FR-S. Maybe wait till they have a turbo version. There is also the Mazdaspeed Factory Turbo Miatas (Mx-5, whatever)

If you aren't concerned about money, and wan't a liveable DD/track car that is understated, maybe a TT-RS?

The Z06 Vettes are hard to deny too, but they are "snappy" out back with the stock suspension.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

Oh no the Supra isn't expensive to mod relative to like Porches, it's just $30K for that old of a car is kind of a joke. I can pick up a good condition Twin-Turbo 300zx which has similar performance and potential for about $7,000-$10,000.

Honestly, the Miata doesn't compare to the S2000 with the F20C. (The early model with 9,000RPM redline).

If you weren't to get the Miata, I'd wait for the FR-S. Maybe wait till they have a turbo version. There is also the Mazdaspeed Factory Turbo Miatas (Mx-5, whatever)

If you aren't concerned about money, and wan't a liveable DD/track car that is understated, maybe a TT-RS?

The Z06 Vettes are hard to deny too, but they are "snappy" out back with the stock suspension.

Is early S2000 with the 2.0 some how better than the later versions with the 2.2?
I know the 2.2 revs like 500 rpms less, but makes the same power but has a bit more low end torque.

I considered a used Mazdaspeed Miata but from my research the current Miata with the 2.0 engine accelerates in the exact same time as the Mazdaspeed version with the turbo 1.8
And the newer car is a bit larger, and as it is, I feel it's a bit snug in the newest model (I had to put the seat two clicks forward from the farthest back postion and then recline the seatback a bit and it was hitting and couldn't go back any further. Ideally I would of put the seat one click further back still).
But the newer Miata seems nice and I'm sure would be a lot of fun on a track.
Only real issue is it would probably be the slowest car their on any given day. Again I don't need to set records, but it sucks to be getting passed by every one.

The TT-RS would be rad, but don't think I'd spend that kind of money to just have a fun weekend/track car that I'd be lucky to put 2,500 miles a year on.

This is why I'm think the BRZ/FR-S would be the best choice.
Yes a turbo model would be ideal, but I bet that's not coming until at least 2014 as a 2015 model.
But really with 201 hp in a 2700 lbs car it should be quite quick. It should split the difference in speed between the Miata and the S2000, which makes sense since it has 33 hp more than the Miata but 36 hp less than the S2000
Plus they are rumored to be about $25-26k to start, so depending on options (maybe a sport package and premium package as options) $25-30k for a brand new car that should handle terrifically.

Guess I should look into when the thing gets released.

[Terry @ BMS]

Get another N54?

[SlicktopTTZ]

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS

Get another N54?

The 1M is a terrific starting point, just damn expensive! To me at least...

Or you could strip and cage a 335i, swap the M3 control arms, buy good set of coil-overs and roll-bars, hook up a good LSD and get ready to tear it up!

[Driver72]

I've considered another N54, as it's good easy platform to mod.

However, since I had 2 335i's already, getting another wouldn't be a bad thing, but I would worry about boring of it quickly.

When the 135i came out I really didn't care for it's looks, but in recent years it has grown on me, especially in M Sport trim.

I don't remember, but did they ever make the 135i with the N54 and DCT or was the DCT only in the N55 engine?

My buddy has a 1M and I drove it once (and briefly). You can clearly feel the boost over a stock 135i and though I never drove a 135i, I could easily tell the 1M handled better than a stock 335i.
But again, it's a pretty expensive car to get for just the weekend warrior car and for track duty. A Boss 302 would be a cheaper, faster from the get go and handle better stock to boot. But it's not as refined as the BMW, but then there is the rip roaring 5.0 that is just sweet!!

Can I put a 5.0 in a BMW??

Decisions, decisions

[mykal335xi]

E46 M3 with some work done could be nice, can't deny the handling and I know of a few local ones that do track days all the time running ~400whp so you don't necessarily have to supercharge it.

Not real fun to drag race in though

[SlicktopTTZ]

I disagree on the Boss 302 handling better. I know there are differences in drivers, but I was 3 seconds ahead of one at autocross, stock for stock. And this guy had been going for about two years.

Secondly, it doesn't have as nice of weight balance. It's more of a "band-aide" car. It's heavy, so it has a big, high-revving V8. It's not balanced and they needed it to stick right at high speeds, so they give it quite a bit of down-force. The stock suspension can be adjusted, so that is pretty cool, but still you're really just making a really stiff or slightly less stiff un-balanced live rear axle car. A lot of those lap times are with different compound tires....Which is completely a game changer in my opinion.

Honestly, I'd rather you get a used C6 Z06 for about the same money and start modding that than a new Boss 302 for the tack. It's kind of like the 1M in the sense that it isn't a real track car, BUT the difference is it tries too hard to be one! I mean, just go drive one, the steering doesn't even feel right and you feel like you are in this giant, high-walled structure.

The 1M knows it is a street car stock, and it's a great one. But I still think it is the better chassis to build than the Mustang chassis and rear-end. Same goes for almost any M car in the history of BMW, although I think there were a few years that Ford made IRS Cobras....

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by dzenno

best advice...no more HPFP and injector issues, this is becoming one reliable platform, cheaper to mod by the day

There aren't What headway has been made?

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

I disagree on the Boss 302 handling better. I know there are differences in drivers, but I was 3 seconds ahead of one at autocross, stock for stock. And this guy had been going for about two years.

I haven't driven a Boss yet, but owned the GT 5.0 and just that runs almost side by side with the M3 with COMPETITION package around a track. The Boss outruns the M3 by a couple seconds, and the Laguna Seca is another 1.5 seconds faster, due MOSTLY to the R Compound tires the LS edition gets. The other tweaks to it are pretty minor over the Boss 302 (1mm thicker anti sway bar and stiffened up rear suspension by a bit too).
But I have read and watched dozens of reviews about the Boss 302 from professional drivers, to ex racers, automotive journalists, you name it, and other than one review that tested it against a ZL1 (which is pretty unfair since the ZL1 is $10k more and has Magnetic shocks) it's been nothing but rave reviews about the Boss, the way it drives and how "neutral and balanced it is".

Yeah I'd say your experience with them is driver mostly. There are lots of people who go to the track simply for the fun of it, not to be the fastest, as the last thing many want to do is spin into the sand or dirt or whatever that track has for run off. Their pride and joy is expensive to many and the damage that can be cost is not worth pushing 10/10ths or even 9/10th of what the car or they can do. They just drive it really swiftly but still well within their control.
Kind of like a blasting hard in an empty canyon road, where a spin can result in meeting a cliff or ditch.

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

Secondly, it doesn't have as nice of weight balance. It's more of a "band-aide" car. It's heavy, so it has a big, high-revving V8. It's not balanced and they needed it to stick right at high speeds, so they give it quite a bit of down-force. The stock suspension can be adjusted, so that is pretty cool, but still you're really just making a really stiff or slightly less stiff un-balanced live rear axle car. A lot of those lap times are with different compound tires....Which is completely a game changer in my opinion.

Well it's really no different than the M3 to be honest. The cars both weigh about the same, both have V8's up front, and both are a hopped up version of the lesser car. As for downforce, well, again adding spliters, wings, etc for that is really no different than what even supercars do for higher speed cars and to help keep them planted on the road. Car and Driver actually stated recently they felt the Boss 302 LS had TOO MUCH rear end grip.
Yes, a live rear axle isn't the best for tracks, but again everybody has raved about how good Ford has done with this one, and even in my GT it felt far better than my 335i and it's good enough to run equal with an M3 Competition Package (meaning a GT would outrun a regular M3 without the Competition package).
A Live rear axle is also favored at drag strips, and gets more power to the ground.
If I was going for records at a track, true it wouldn't be ideal, but as it stands, it's pretty darn impressive for a $42k car to beat cars costing nearly twice as much, and anything within $10 grand price doesn't stand a chance.

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

Honestly, I'd rather you get a used C6 Z06 for about the same money and start modding that than a new Boss 302 for the tack. It's kind of like the 1M in the sense that it isn't a real track car, BUT the difference is it tries too hard to be one! I mean, just go drive one, the steering doesn't even feel right and you feel like you are in this giant, high-walled structure.

The 1M knows it is a street car stock, and it's a great one. But I still think it is the better chassis to build than the Mustang chassis and rear-end. Same goes for almost any M car in the history of BMW, although I think there were a few years that Ford made IRS Cobras....

The ZO6 seems to be the complete opposite of the Boss 302.
I went back and read all kinds of reviews about it and time after time, everyone said the ZO6 is a handful on the track. The seats are flimsy and not supportive, the car will snap it's rear end out easily and hit a mid corner bump and the back end wants to send you side ways. That's what you USED to hear about live rear axles, but you don't about the Boss but DO in the much more expensive ZO6. Even professional drivers have stated the ZO6 should only be used on a track by a well experienced driver, and auto journalists who spend lots of time on tracks with all kinds of cars have said it's "scary" on the track and does not instill confidence.
A beast in a straight line though.

Sorry, I also disagree about comparing the Boss to the 1M.
I agree that car was NOT intended to be a track car, it's a 135i with M3 parts tacked on, and a boosted up 135i engine.
The Boss was developed to be ON a track. The engine was completely reworked with forged internals, and the engineers specifically MADE the car to be run on the track. You can run it and run it on a track with no issues.
They spent days running the Boss on a track to make sure it was durable for track duty. There was NO other intention when they built the Boss, other than making it the best handling Mustang ever for track use.

The Boss is not perfect, that's for sure, but hey at $42k or $48k for the limited edition Laguna Seca model, you can't expect it to be.
But again there is not another car you can buy new that handles as well, goes as fast and can be run on the track as is, without worrying about overheating, brakes fading easily or quickly or what not, and then drive over to a drag strip and pull off low to mid 12's at 116+ mph stock. It's also going to hold it's value well, which as long as it's not trashed, is a bonus too.

Lastly, it still does not mean I want to get one at this point.
Part of me still feels like getting a used car that I can mod to taste, or just get a BRZ/FRS when they come out and run a cheap new car and just have fun as is.

I appreciate all your input immensely however.
I'm not a road course track veteran, only been a couple times. Drags have always been what I've spent a lot of time doing, so input regarding track cars from people who know tracks is highly appreciated.
BTW, I'd love a lightly used M3 DCT, but decent ones still seem to run $50k used, and they are expensive to mod.

[snowcastle]

The car world has got many dashing models on the tracks......if there is no money concern you can get a best of today's sporty cars...

[David 12]

After I turned in my 2007 335i (JB3), I purchased a 2009 Cayman S with the PDK transmission and discovered how much fun it is going around a track provided you have the right car.

A 2009+ Cayman S almost made me look good on the track; it's that good. I got a great offer from the local dealer on the 911 but I think I prefer the Cayman S for track purposes.

Dave